To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

So, OP, you think that those of us that object to the “Karen” meme think that calling a black woman “a Shaniqua” because she is exhibiting behaviour that is stereotypically associated with a certain “type” of woman (the idea that there are “types” is a whole other layer of misogynistic bigotry) is OK?

Do you think that those of us who object to the “Karen” meme think that women using their privilege to harm the less privileged is justifiable?

We don’t. I think you’ve enormously misunderstood, and fallen into another patriarchy trap.

If Shaniqua and Ling Ling have been misappropriated like Karen has been that’s equally unacceptable. If I heard it I would call it out.

I've never heard of LingLing and Guadelope used disparagingly 🙁

It wasn't a race isaue at first, but a class one - women who demand to speak to the manager, and patronise, bully and belittle service staff. (I'd say lower middle class, based on the "Karen" haircut)

Obviously it's been coopted by all sorts, but I'd say that the predominant victims of "Karen" behaviour were female also. Whatever it's become, I find the MN interpretation of it as "silencing women for standing up for themselves" a bit off kilter. Because complaints about "Karens" originated from exactly that - women standing up against rude and entitled behaviour directed at them. Rude and entitled behaviour IS the target. I've never heard of a woman being labelled a Karen for doing anything reasonable.

(I'd hazard a guess that women in service roles would face different challenges from rude and entitled men, i.e. unwanted flirting or sexual advances.)

so while the term did originate in referring to white American women who were trying to se the law to harass black people it certainly has evolved

This is not the origin. See the incel origin quoted above. You can see this for yourself if you do a Google image search. The first time Karen appears is in this context and for quite a long time afterwards. A diligent mumsnetter did it on an earlier thread.

Calling people names is wrong. I know some seem to want to engage in mental gymanstics to convince themselves that they are instances where calling someone a name is good because it's for the cause of social justice.

But it really isn't.

It's petty and vindictive and the social justice arguments are just a rationalisation for people who want to be petty and vindictive but go on telling themselves that they are a good person.

I agree with your sentiment OP, but that does not justify it or any other examples you have given. Two or more wrongs never make a right.

Karen in the UK has a different meaning to Karen in the US.

I think that the anger against Karen is disproportionate when people here use names as stereotypes for other groups. You just need to look at the baby names forums for frequent use of chav to describe a "poor person's name", Kevin (teenager), Jocasta and Tarquin (posh children) etc

black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling

These are all American terms that are not common in the UK.

I could also point out that most people from South American countries don't like the term 'Hispanic' and would rather they were identified as their own nationality. My DH is from a South American country and his family don't consider themselves 'Hispanic'. It is an American racist term itself, never mind using a name like Guadalupe (which is a name that can be used for both sexes which may explain its popularity as a racist insult). 'Hispanic' is not a significant racial group in the UK.

Also 'Ling Ling' makes no sense for an Asian woman in the UK where 'Asian' is used to mean people whose ethnicity is from the Indian subcontinent (the largest ethnic minority in the UK) and people from the rest of the continent of Asia are a much smaller minority. But I'm trying to think if I know of a name that is used as a generic racist name for Indian Asian women, I'm not aware of one but that doesn't mean there isn't one. I'm think that all these names are an American phenonenon that don't really translate to the UK and particularly in the case of Karen it's a name that in a UK context has such different class and race associations than in the US which is driving the annoyance about its use here.

And, FWIW, I'd call out someone for using the names you listed for being both racist and sexist but thankfully it's not something I've witnessed.

@aSofaNearYou

Are you seriously saying that women behave in more racist ways than men? What evidence do you have of that?

I think this is a good point. The fact that this type of white, racist women have been given a name, has put a lot of focus on them culturally in the discussion about racism. Should we start calling racist men Derek, after Derek Chauvin? Because as awful as these racist women are, I'm not seeing much evidence that the racism that comes from women is worse than the racism that comes from men. There are also a LOT of men who act just like your stereotypical "Karen", but there is no name for those.

It's all part of a wider culture that likes blaming women and letting men off the hook, when in fact they are often generally worse. Good to tackle racism, but not great how it's being done.

Exactly.

Aren't they all misogynistic and some both misogynist and racist? Karen has just really caught on in this country and is used to mock middle aged women (of all ethnicities) who dare to ever say anything. I've never heard anybody use the others or seen memes about their use but I regularly see and hear people referencing 'Karen'. Two Karen memes were posted on my local facebook page yesterday because a woman politely pointed out that releasing helium balloons is awful for the environment and hurts animals and suggested other, more eco friendly alternatives. She was trying really hard not to hurt anyone's feelings and clearly hoped she could appeal to their better nature. But no, she was shouted down and insulted. Know your place, woman!

Please look into the history of the word before you make sweeping generalisations about those who object to it.

I'm in a lower paid role. Am I allowed to object to it? How about my well paid mixed race friend. I know for a fact she wouldn't use it. She doesn't use gammon or woke either.
I would never call anyone a Karen. I'd call them rude.
I'd call a racist a racist.
And you op, are employing misogynistic language so...

@Celandines you keep making comparisons which have nothing to do with my comments. When did I mention anything about there being more racist women than men. Nobody would ever be able to determine either way as racism is an internal ideology and you can’t scan someone’s brain to see if they are racist. What are you even on about?

Nothing becomes a feminist issue until it affects white women so yes, I agree with you OP.

What's the equivalent name for a man?

I'm not saying that those who have never experienced it are racist, but that the fact that you haven't means you that you are privileged.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, OP, but if you genuinely believe that terms like this are used in the pursuit of social justice you are mistaken. The people who use Karen (or any of the other names you mentioned) may as well be honest and say 'shut up, bitch' because that is what they mean.

@JaninaDuszejko

black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling

These are all American terms that are not common in the UK.

I could also point out that most people from South American countries don't like the term 'Hispanic' and would rather they were identified as their own nationality. My DH is from a South American country and his family don't consider themselves 'Hispanic'. It is an American racist term itself, never mind using a name like Guadalupe (which is a name that can be used for both sexes which may explain its popularity as a racist insult). 'Hispanic' is not a significant racial group in the UK.

Also 'Ling Ling' makes no sense for an Asian woman in the UK where 'Asian' is used to mean people whose ethnicity is from the Indian subcontinent (the largest ethnic minority in the UK) and people from the rest of the continent of Asia are a much smaller minority. But I'm trying to think if I know of a name that is used as a generic racist name for Indian Asian women, I'm not aware of one but that doesn't mean there isn't one. I'm think that all these names are an American phenonenon that don't really translate to the UK and particularly in the case of Karen it's a name that in a UK context has such different class and race associations than in the US which is driving the annoyance about its use here.

And, FWIW, I'd call out someone for using the names you listed for being both racist and sexist but thankfully it's not something I've witnessed.

This!

@SaskiaRembrandt

I'm not saying that those who have never experienced it are racist, but that the fact that you haven't means you that you are privileged.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, OP, but if you genuinely believe that terms like this are used in the pursuit of social justice you are mistaken. The people who use Karen (or any of the other names you mentioned) may as well be honest and say 'shut up, bitch' because that is what they mean.

And this.

@FrankButchersDickieBow

The names you use OP are racist, classist and sexist.

Karen is used to shut women up.

I work with a few Karen's funnily enough. All middle-aged, all working class, one of whom is black.

I feel sorry that these lovely women's names have been monopolised by sexist men and women with internalised misogyny - the kind of people who would call women sluts/slags/bitch etc.

Agree with this

@FloofyCushion

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

This is dumb. Karen blew up beyond the limited, race-baiting scope of Shaniqua. No one in the media writes hateful op-eds about Shaniqua but everyone seems to have a trash take on Karens. There’s your difference.

Also, never ever heard of Marias or Ling Lings. Your friends are obviously racist. Get new ones.

I think that the anger against Karen is disproportionate when people here use names as stereotypes for other groups. You just need to look at the baby names forums for frequent use of chav to describe a "poor person's name", Kevin (teenager), Jocasta and Tarquin (posh children) etc

Chav is a shitty thing to call someone. But the others don't have the same connotations. Teenaged boys and posh children aren't historically marginalised groups.

@Dutch1e I think this is the exact point the OP is making. Things only become a feminist issue when they effect white women. Before then it’s something which is racist or nasty but never misogyny even if the target is woman unless they are a white women.

Aren't they all misogynistic and some both misogynist and racist? Karen has just really caught on in this country and is used to mock middle aged women (of all ethnicities) who dare to ever say anything. I've never heard anybody use the others or seen memes about their use but I regularly see and hear people referencing 'Karen'. Two Karen memes were posted on my local facebook page yesterday because a woman politely pointed out that releasing helium balloons is awful for the environment and hurts animals and suggested other, more eco friendly alternatives. She was trying really hard not to hurt anyone's feelings and clearly hoped she could appeal to their better nature. But no, she was shouted down and insulted. Know your place, woman!

This. God forbid a woman have an opinion, or ask to be treated the same way as a man.

@Dutch1e

Nothing becomes a feminist issue until it affects white women so yes, I agree with you OP.

Really? Examples?

@UsedUpUsername ah so it was not misogyny in the case of Shaniqua and it was only racism. Interesting though as shaniqua was only used for black women not black men. So what exactly is the difference between Shaniqua and Karen and why is one misogyny and the other is not?

Is there any other reason except for the fact that Shaniqua was racist. You know something can be racist and misogynistic at the same time. It’s called intersectionality.

@SaskiaRembrandt

Meraas How does denigrating another group of women help them? And I am talking about middle class white men in the UK. To give an example, sneering that one of the women who cleans their student flat is called Karen, then remarking that they're all Karens really. It's just members of an elite group belittling women they believe to be inferior. As has already been pointed out, it's misogyny dressed up as 'wokeness'.

And as ever, misogyny is basically the only thing that is allowed to fly under the radar of "wokeness" in order to bolster up another marginalised group. Would it be acceptable, for example, for me as a white woman to come up with a mocking word for misogynistic, black men? I seriously doubt it.