To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

The fact that this type of white, racist women have been given a name, has put a lot of focus on them culturally in the discussion about racism. Should we start calling racist men Derek, after Derek Chauvin? Because as awful as these racist women are, I'm not seeing much evidence that the racism that comes from women is worse than the racism that comes from men. There are also a LOT of men who act just like your stereotypical "Karen", but there is no name for those.

I think the term "Gammon" covers those. Not a particular name. Don't think "Derek" would stick in UK. "Nigel" maybe?

The names you use OP are racist, classist and sexist.

Karen is used to shut women up.

I work with a few Karen's funnily enough. All middle-aged, all working class, one of whom is black.

I feel sorry that these lovely women's names have been monopolised by sexist men and women with internalised misogyny - the kind of people who would call women sluts/slags/bitch etc.

Yeah, I think misogyny faced by white women gets a bigger platform in the UK, and I guess often when (white) women are talking about the issues faced by eg black women there's a tendency to try to separate out what is racism from what is sexism in a way that fails to appreciate intersectionality, as well as just less interest from many white people with varying levels of conscious/unconscious racism.

At the same time, one of the challenges posed by global Internet communications eg via Twitter is that people in the US and the UK think they're communicating about the same thing and actually the meaning or application has become quite different. I have challenged the racism and sexism of "Shaniqua" before (in person, in London), and I dislike "Karen" too. But contextually in the UK applications of "Karen" as I've seen them seem to be about middle aged feminists, rather than white women weaponising their hurt to perpetuate racism as in the US. Definitely what I have seen of the use of the term "Karen" in the UK feels much more anti-woman than anti-racism.

I haven't heard people use 'Shaniqua', 'Ling Ling' or 'Maria' in the same way as 'Karen'.

If I came across it, I'd strongly object, as I do when 'Karen' is used as an insult.

Racist? Misogynistic? Probably both in the case of the examples you mention. But either way, it's rude, spreads prejudice and stereotypes, and is unkind to women with those names as well as to the person being addressed.

@Celandines where did you get that from what I said. I didn’t even mention men?

Literally completely irrelevant to what I said.

I think the term "Gammon" covers those. Not a particular name. Don't think "Derek" would stick in UK. "Nigel" maybe?

Fair point, there is gammon, although it's not a man's name and to me is more associated with class/politics, than sex. Those are the kinds of subtle differences that contribute to the sexism, I guess.

It isn't misogynistic, it's a name given to entitled racist white American women who harass black people and think they can get away with it. That's how it originated.

That’s how it originated but it’s not how it’s always used now. For example, I’ve seen Karen be used about someone not wearing a mask. You could argue that that’s an incorrect usage of it, but given how widespread it is, I think it’s more that the meaning has evolved.

The Karen meme has its origins in incel culture.
Race connotations came later.
Best just to avoid all terms op, all lazy stereotyping of one type or another and used by people who have no rational argument back.
It's easy to dismiss someone's thoughts because of who they are: gammon, Karen, woke. Name calling doesn't make their argument go away and makes you look petty.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2020/2/5/21079162/karen-name-insult-meme-manager

I agree with you OP. Shaniqua/Tanisha/Felisha have been around for time with little backlash.

@igelkott2021 yes of course you don’t believe it happens often. I’ve never heard of children being used for slave labour where I live so surely it does not happen.

The way people on this thread are saying ‘I’ve never heard of people using this term so it doesn’t exist’ is extremely symptomatic of the point that the OP is making: if it doesn’t happen on front of middle class white women it doesn’t happen at all.

I've never heard of Maria/ Guadalupe/ Ling Ling (except for in a film where it was a running 'joke' that a character with a Chinese mother was called that) but yes, Shaniqua is misogynistic and classist as well as racist.

It's shorthand for a black woman/ girl from a poor background who is seen as having lower status for those reasons and not worth listening to. Pretty snide, prejudiced stuff and a quick way to discount the opinions/ priorities/ concerns/ issues of yet another demographic of women. No different from how Karen is used in the UK (although this is probably ageist rather than classist) along with the 'call the manager' haircut.

I agree OP. I think it's more important to support black, Asian, Hispanic victims in the US who bear the brunt of racism, and if using the term banner gives the impetus to upload their experiences of racist abuse on YouTube, then I fully support them

Surely you can support them without throwing someone else under the bus?

Not saying those other terms dont exist, btw, just that I can't comment as I don't know them.

@Celandines

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women You and your friends might use those racist terms op but I don't know anyone who does. The fact that some people do doesn't make it OK to be misogynistic/ageist to 45+ women.

Where does OP say she or her friends use those terms?

@SaskiaRembrandt

Also, in the UK I've only ever seen young, white, middle class men use 'Karen' as an insult. Make of that what you will ...

That’s not the fault of black/ Hispanic/Asian people. They should be allowed to call out racism and post videos on YouTube and if using the term Karen to refer to a specific type of behaviour helps them then I fully support that.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I agree OP. I think it's more important to support black, Asian, Hispanic victims in the US who bear the brunt of racism, and if using the term banner gives the impetus to upload their experiences of racist abuse on YouTube, then I fully support them

Surely you can support them without throwing someone else under the bus?

Yes quite. I don't see why racism or misogyny need to be considered "more important".

Can't comment on the other names as I've never heard or seen them used

But Karen is aimed at any woman with an opinion as a means of shutting them down

Misogynistic, ageist and classist

Anyone using the term is a bit thick if that is their level of debate

But the same would be true of the other names

All those terms are misogynistic, some are racist too.
All of it unacceptable

The way people on this thread are saying ‘I’ve never heard of people using this term so it doesn’t exist’ is extremely symptomatic of the point that the OP is making: if it doesn’t happen on front of middle class white women it doesn’t happen at all
No one at all has said it doesn't exist FFS. It's just unclear why 45+ women only have to be punished for racism by being called names if they speak out about anything at all. Last time I checked the vast majority of people on Britain First marches were men. But yeah let's use racism as an excuse to be misogynistic and ageist to 45+ women. It's not as if misogyny and ageism doesn't have a long history. People have always made up excuses for it by blaming older women for all sorts

Meraas How does denigrating another group of women help them? And I am talking about middle class white men in the UK. To give an example, sneering that one of the women who cleans their student flat is called Karen, then remarking that they're all Karens really. It's just members of an elite group belittling women they believe to be inferior. As has already been pointed out, it's misogyny dressed up as 'wokeness'.

Never ever seen it in the UK used to 'call out racism'. Just shut women down (usually for expressing a reasonable opinion).
If you want to 'call out racism' then the words 'that is racist' followed by an explanation of why are much more direct and powerful. Calling someone names won't get them to rethink their ideas.

YABU. It's a US/American slur, and demographically the name Karen has been widespread much more recently in the US black community than in the US as a whole. But even if that weren't the case, why is it OK to take a popular name from another culture (Karen is the Danish variant of Catherine) and piss all over it?

White racists in the USA also deceitfully attribute the slur "Karen" to black people, co-opting the tradition in black American communities to use one person's personal name to refer to a trait that person has. They lie, though; widespread use of "Karen" comes from reddit, where a man started the subreddit "fuckyoukaren" to encourage people to threaten sexual violence against his (imaginary, as it turned out) ex-wife Karen. Go look at that site, if you're a woman, and imagine yourself in the position of any of the "karens" that get posted about. (Don't do this if you're vulnerable - it's a shit ton of full-on sexist "banter" and rape and sexual violence threats and "jokes").

The other things you mention are also problematic if and when they happen, so call them out when you see them. Your post, though, is xenophobic and racist (as well as sexist and classist), and so I'm going with the assumption that you yourself are racist and xenophobic.

@Wanttocry

It isn't misogynistic, it's a name given to entitled racist white American women who harass black people and think they can get away with it. That's how it originated.

That’s how it originated but it’s not how it’s always used now. For example, I’ve seen Karen be used about someone not wearing a mask. You could argue that that’s an incorrect usage of it, but given how widespread it is, I think it’s more that the meaning has evolved.

I got called Karen for pointing out e scooters are illegal other than on Private land so while the term did originate in referring to white American women who were trying to se the law to harass black people it certainly has evolved

[quote cinammonbuns]@igelkott2021 yes of course you don’t believe it happens often. I’ve never heard of children being used for slave labour where I live so surely it does not happen.

The way people on this thread are saying ‘I’ve never heard of people using this term so it doesn’t exist’ is extremely symptomatic of the point that the OP is making: if it doesn’t happen on front of middle class white women it doesn’t happen at all.[/quote]
Indeed. I think sometimes it's easier to put the blinkers on and deny something is happening than face the ugly truth that it does and that you are also a part of it.

I'm not saying that those who have never experienced it are racist, but that the fact that you haven't means you that you are privileged.