To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

Calling someone "Karen" is worse than "being a Karen

Good

@mustlovegin

I feel like people don't understand the difference between punching up and punching down

Nobody should be 'punching' and they are equally bad in my book, no matter how much you try to justify those who punch up

It’s a really awful way to look at human relationships.

Like a weird math equation. You are black so you as a black person can make fun of these groups. You are Asian, you as an Asian can make fun of these groups ... and so on and so forth.

It really doesn’t capture the complexity of the human condition.

In all honesty, I’d rather be told “shut up, stupid bitch” than called “a Karen”.

At least then they’d be saying what they really meant and people who were laughing along would realise the real message.

The underhand, smirky, deniability of “Karen” is what most offends me.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

In all honesty, I’d rather be told “shut up, stupid bitch” than called “a Karen”.

At least then they’d be saying what they really meant and people who were laughing along would realise the real message.

The underhand, smirky, deniability of “Karen” is what most offends me.

Absolutely agree.

But, I would bet money they wouldn't dare say this as freely as they call women 'karens'

No one has said ‘Karen’ since April 2020. I don’t know why MN is obsessed with it. And it refers to racist women. It’s almost as if MN want stop racism being called out.

I don't understand what you are saying Wishes2020

@Wishes2020

No one has said ‘Karen’ since April 2020. I don’t know why MN is obsessed with it. And it refers to racist women. It’s almost as if MN want stop racism being called out.

Where have you been since then?

@Wishes2020

No one has said ‘Karen’ since April 2020. I don’t know why MN is obsessed with it. And it refers to racist women. It’s almost as if MN want stop racism being called out.

That's not even vaguely true. Any of it.

@Wishes2020

No one has said ‘Karen’ since April 2020. I don’t know why MN is obsessed with it. And it refers to racist women. It’s almost as if MN want stop racism being called out.

Bollocks.

Slang isn't ever a good way to communicate anything. If you want to 'call out' racism then the words. 'that is racist' and the word 'because' are most effective.

Racism in the UK is interlinked with class, economics and structural factors. It can look more subtle than the US.
For example, in the US they effectively have white schools and black schools, with children from respective areas being 'bussed' to schools from other areas. They have state schools and public schools, which are funded and run very differently to the UK. Teachers in the US are paid particularly poorly in some areas; running two jobs won't make a good teacher or attract the best people into the profession.

In the UK we largely have state funded infant and primary schools with a handful of private schools for this age group. We have grammars, state and independent schools, the first two of which are regulated by Ofsted. In theory this means our educational opportunities are at a more even keel.
But in practice class and race dictate your opportunities. For example, the 11+ still run by many counties to select who attends grammar is not taught in schools. A private tutor is needed to pass them; thus disadvantages lower income families. Grammars are not available throughout the whole country: so only certain areas will have access to grammar schools. Ofsted is well known amongst educators to penalize schools with a lower income catchment area-so all the good teachers gravitate towards the more affluent areas. Good teachers in schools that come under fire from Ofsted either get burnt out or pushed out. Children from certain backgrounds are more likely to be excluded or expelled: a whole lot of factors come into play here, alternative education provision being sub standard or unavailable; schools actively pushing out children who will effect their results (as Ofsted judge their effectiveness by them); resources and finding are unfair meaning schools with greater need get the same as those without.
And this is just mainly based on economic class, when you add in language and experience, extra curricular opportunities, gender(I mean sex!), race and everything else, it's a very tangled web that needs to looked at altogether. Because we're not bussing black children to one school and white children to another it looks fair, but it's really not. Inequality in the UK is far more subtle and geographical and economic factors play a big part.

So importing US politics won't solve our problems: yes we have the same loose problems. Yet they look very different and require different solutions.

And calling women Karen's unsurprisingly doesn't really come close to solving our intricate problems.

But it does make keyboard warriors feel good about themselves for doing virtually nothing to combat systematic racism and indeed sexism.

It's a pat on the back for lazy virtue signallers.

Wroxie
I feel like people don't understand the difference between punching up and punching down.

But "punching up" doesn't make it less racist or sexist than those "punching down".

@UsedUpUsername it's one thing to disagree with me, lots of people have, they have managed to do it without accusing me of not actually being a woman. I have been a Black woman for over 40 years, the first half of those years in Southern Mississippi, I can assure you that white women can be horrifically racist without any guidance or assistance from men. They don't get cleared of racism because they're women. I'll hold my tongue now because what I really want to say to you would have me banned, and in fact if your comment is allowed to stand by @mumsnetHQ I'll be banning myself.

(well, I was a Black girl for a while before becoming a Black woman, but I'm sure you know what I mean anyway)

The people who use Karen as a insult are stupid. They believe Karen is a "white womens" name because they can't get tiny little brains around the idea that other cultures exist, and in some of those other cultures the name Karen is used a tribal name and a man's name.

@UsedUpUsername this was written especially just for you! I usually try to explain myself and my perspective because I really hope some people will engage with me, even if they don't agree. But I'm done, at least here on MN, and this author explains why better than I could. I hope you find peace because you clearly don't have it now with all that anger and hatred inside you. You cannot love and value women when you discount the experiences of Black women- and I can fucking assure you that I've suffered just as much from racism as I have from sexism, and racism has taken more away from me in real terms than sexism has.

"I’m no longer engaging with white people on the topic of race. Not all white people, just the vast majority who refuse to accept the existence of structural racism and its symptoms. I can no longer engage with the gulf of an emotional disconnect that white people display when a person of colour articulates their experience. You can see their eyes shut down and harden. It’s like treacle is poured into their ears, blocking up their ear canals. It’s like they can no longer hear us.

“This emotional disconnect is the conclusion of living a life oblivious to the fact that their skin colour is the norm and all others deviate from it.

“At best, white people have been taught not to mention that people of colour are “different” in case it offends us. They truly believe that the experiences of their life as a result of their skin colour can and should be universal. I just can’t engage with the bewilderment and the defensiveness as they try to grapple with the fact that not everyone experiences the world in the way that they do.

“They’ve never had to think about what it means, in power terms, to be white, so any time they’re vaguely reminded of this fact, they interpret it as an affront. Their eyes glaze over in boredom or widen in indignation. Their mouths start twitching as they get defensive. Their throats open up as they try to interrupt, itching to talk over you but not to really listen, because they need to let you know that you’ve got it wrong."

-Renni Eddo-Lodge

No one is suggesting racism doesn't exist or is excusable in the UK. What is being said is that racism in the UK is very different structurally from racism in the US and exporting US problems and solutions doesn't address our own.
Akala discusses this briefly in his book natives: as a mixed race half Scottish native London he has a good hold on how racism in the England differs to the US and even, surprisingly, Scotland.

I’m very sad that this is still going.
As a Middle aged woman it’s frustrating that I/we don’t seem to have a voice, to have the ability to say it’s not right. Other similar things get a voice.

@Wishes2020

No one has said ‘Karen’ since April 2020. I don’t know why MN is obsessed with it. And it refers to racist women. It’s almost as if MN want stop racism being called out.

I see it every day on TikTok.

omfg read the original post. The very first paragraph refers to a trope that lots of UK posters said they had never heard or didn't understand. It's an international world. This is an international topic. "Karen" has more than one meaning and has evolved differently in different places but understanding how it started and how it got to where it is now is interesting and it's part of the story.

And for god's fucking sake I am a Black woman born in the US who has lived in the UK for 20 years, I don't mean to beat a dead horse but I don't need the tens of you who won't shut up about it to tell me how racism works in the UK vs. the US. I FUCKING KNOW and here's a secret, it's not as different as you want to think.

And now I really am done.

@TheSlayer that was for you, sorry.

Yes, and that our voice is being shouted down by younger women who will realise in a few years time all they did was ally themselves with privileged, misogynistic men.

All of the above are equally bad. How about we find a name for random opinionated men who give their unsolicited opinions to strangers?