To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

The UK and US are very different - eg the UK is only 3% black and is 8% white (and 98% white in Northumberland). Karen seems to be used in the UK against white and black women . I don't mind what words people use although I try not to use nasty ones like chav and many others as it is better to be kind to others. However older capable black and white women who stand up for law and order are heroes. If that means they are Karens then we salute Karens and anyone they tell off for breaking the rules or the law is rightly in the dog house.

If it was all just as simple as 'just speak up' everyone's lives would be a bit easier

I understand in some contexts it's more difficult. But I think the poster I was quoting was talking about a train or bus situation, where self-consciousness/embarrassment may be at play (rather then losing one's job).

I've been twatted on a bus for telling some teens off for bullying a lone girl.
I don't speak out like that anymore. The aggressor was much younger than me but male. A big gang of entitled males is intimidating.
So not surprised people don't always speak up.

A big gang of entitled males is intimidating

Yes, I agree

@mustlovegin

If it was all just as simple as 'just speak up' everyone's lives would be a bit easier

I understand in some contexts it's more difficult. But I think the poster I was quoting was talking about a train or bus situation, where self-consciousness/embarrassment may be at play (rather then losing one's job).

But some women are even less likely to speak up in public.

Because they are publicly taken the piss out of until they get a reaction.

Again, great you always speak up everytime.

Not every feels they can.

TheSlayer

@mustlovegin

What's the point of this thread? Is it to shame UK women (who will be majority white, that's just the demographic) for objecting to misogynistic slurs against them because slurs most of us will never have heard of are used against women in another country 4500 miles away?

Many interesting views on the thread.

But I'm not convinced the thread itself positively contributes to anything. The above sums it up well

Because like I and other posters have pointed out they have heard the slurs within this country either directed at them or people they care about. The op isn’t saying we should be able to use ‘Karen’ but is asking why it is seen as misogynistic whereas the others are merely seen as racist.

@igelkott2021

As a BAME person, I don't think white people have a clue what we go through...Yet we are still expected to prioritise the feelings of white women when they are hurt by the term Karen

BAME people are not expected to prioritise the feelings of white women of a certain age when they are hurt by the term Karen. Karen is not a racial slur, it is a sexist and misogynistic one in the UK - I am not talking about the US, this is a UK-based website and its users are predominantly women of childbearing age who live in the UK.

Anyway I am not hurt by it, I am angered by it because it makes me angry that women are not allowed to have opinions and if they are over 40, even less so.

Yeah. Yeah they are. Especially if they are younger and also female. Try walking in someone else’s shoes you might be surprised.

I think the reason the examples in the op, which I won't repeat out of respect of a user request, are generally described as racist because racial slurs are taken more seriously. It means people are less likely to say they're fine and just banter.
But I haven't heard them in real life(thank goodness!) so don't know if I'd assume misogyny or racial discrimination.

The op isn’t saying we should be able to use ‘Karen’ but is asking why it is seen as misogynistic whereas the others are merely seen as racist.

I don't think they are "merely" seen as racist, they are both. However, I think the use probably comes from a basis of racism rather than misogyny (I don't know, it's obviously not something I've experienced and I've not personally heard their use in the U.K.) "Karen" can not be racist and thus is merely misogynistic.

The astonishing thing about the USA is that almost all of the bad behaviour is done by women. It’s a completely different power dynamic from the rest of the world, and a radical turn-around since the last time I lived there in the mid 2010s.

Last year, in the USA, a male police officer brutally murdered a black man for no reason, sparking weeks of protests around the world, but nobody’s calling racists “Dereks”.

Do you know the name of the police officers who killed Breonna Taylor? Jonathan, Brett, and Myles. Do you know the name of the Attorney General accused of leading the cover-up? Daniel.

Do you know the name of the officer who killed Eric Garner? Daniel again.

The officer who fatally shot Trayvon Martin? George.

The officer who killed Jonathan Saunders? Kevin.

The officers who fatally shot 15-year-old Hadiya Pendleton while she was walking with friends in a public park? Michael and Kenneth.

The officer who fatally shot Philando Castile at a routine traffic stop (seven shots fired at close range, with a four year old child in the car)? Jeronimo.

The officer who fatally shot 12 year old Tamir Rice with no warning because he was carrying a toy gun? Timothy.

But, yeah, “Karen” is the real problem.

It’s an easy target.

But, yeah, “Karen” is the real problem

Karen is not a racist white woman. It’s just a meme used to poke fun at average-looking, middle-aged women who are a bit assertive.

It’s a go-to insult used by younger people, particularly young men.

You’re not comparing like for like here.

I've never once heard people referred to as those names and I have seen many women who ate not white called a karen. I don't think it relates solely to white people at all

The criticism of the “Karen” haircut totally marks it as a USA meme, I think? Not a popular Brit hairstyle.

But definitely Karen isn’t just a White name, I know several black Karen’s.

I feel like people don't understand the difference between punching up and punching down.

As an example - a working-class Black woman calling a rich white man who supports racist governmental policies a "Gammon", or a woman who uses her white privilege to threaten someone who isn't white a "Karen" - you may not like the sound of it and you may not like name-calling in general, but to pretend that's the same and "just as bad" as a rich white American calling a working-class Black American woman "Shaniqua" or a rich white American woman calling the Mexican woman who works as a cleaner in her house "one of the Marias" (as a friend's awful mother was known to do) - it's bloody not the same!

The first one is borne out of genuine frustration and anger and is one of the few ways that people with limited social capital and power can regain a little of that - laughing at the powerful and making them look ridiculous for the shitty things they do is a time-honoured tradition and if you're the one in power and you don't like it, you have the option to stop doing shitty things and to stop supporting shitty things.

The other examples - punching down at people who are less powerful than you, who have less social capital and privilege, and who haven't done anything to deserve it other than to exist in the limited roles that the powerful have tried to define for them - that's hateful, nasty, bullying behaviour and has nothing whatsoever in common with the first example.

I will say that the increasingly widespread habit of calling women "Karen" for reasons other than them specifically wielding white privilege as a weapon is misogynistic as hell, but it's also (according to some young people I know, anyway) quickly fading away- it's "cringe", apparently. Calling someone "Karen" is worse than "being a Karen".

@Wroxie The problem is that women are also "punched down" to. A large amount of people using this term are men. It's disingenuous to suggest women are so commonly the perpetrators of racism, they alone deserve a special name for it. It's disingenuous to suggest that Karen is only used to call out racists. And it's disingenuous to ignore the fact that women aren't solely in a position of privilege. They are also victims of misogyny, which is as much an ongoing battle as racism is.

Yeah. Yeah they are. Especially if they are younger and also female. Try walking in someone else’s shoes you might be surprised

Younger females aren't allowed an opinion either. But in the UK, the "Karen" slur is used about women over 40. So they are the demographic we are talking about in the context of the Karen slur.

Many men think women are merely playthings (and punchbags). It's a pity that some women choose to have a go at other women, rather than fighting the real problem, which is the cultural dominance of (white) men.

The slur itself isn't the real problem - the problem is the sexism and ageism behind the slur - as I have said a million times on here - women generally are not allowed to have opinions, women over 40 even less so.

I will say that the increasingly widespread habit of calling women "Karen" for reasons other than them specifically wielding white privilege as a weapon is misogynistic as hell, but it's also (according to some young people I know, anyway) quickly fading away- it's "cringe", apparently. Calling someone "Karen" is worse than "being a Karen

I sincerely hope so - maybe they've grasped that women having a go at other women isn't cool (unless they are actually expressing objectionable views or behaviour).

@aSofaNearYou I specifically said that calling a woman Karen for non-racially charged behaviour is misogynistic.

However, at least in America, white women SPECIFICALLY have a history of weaponising their white privilege in a very specific way. It started with slave-owning women, continued through the middle of the last century (falsely scapegoating Black men leading to their lynching in particular), and through to today when you see white WOMEN specifically claiming to feel unsafe when Black people are just living their lives because they know that their white womanhood will protect them.
I understand if you don't see this - that's great that it's not as much of a thing in the UK! That makes me happy! But it IS a thing in the US and pretending that it's not doesn't make it not so.

Sad middle aged white women trying to find some way to feel oppressed as always. But they'll say it's equal or worse to what BAME people experience as if we'll be on their side and push their problems ahead of ours

Asking people to stop using "Karen" as a slur does not preclude people from also being against racist slurs or behaviour.

We have rooms in our brains for more than one concern.

But it IS a thing in the US and pretending that it's not doesn't make it not so

We're not pretending it doesn't happen in the US, but as I pointed out further up the thread, this is a UK website for UK residents (and mainly female ones of child-bearing age) and we discuss things in that context and it isn't helpful when people from overseas tell us we are wrong about the cultural context of the UK when we live here.

@igelkott2021 I live in the bloody UK! I have for 20 years! But thanks to the internet mainly, words and slang and ideas are international. I haven't once said the cultural context of the UK is wrong. I live here. I understand it, thanks. But this is a nuanced conversation and I'll not be told I can't bring that nuance to the table.

[quote Wroxie]@aSofaNearYou I specifically said that calling a woman Karen for non-racially charged behaviour is misogynistic.

However, at least in America, white women SPECIFICALLY have a history of weaponising their white privilege in a very specific way. It started with slave-owning women, continued through the middle of the last century (falsely scapegoating Black men leading to their lynching in particular), and through to today when you see white WOMEN specifically claiming to feel unsafe when Black people are just living their lives because they know that their white womanhood will protect them.
I understand if you don't see this - that's great that it's not as much of a thing in the UK! That makes me happy! But it IS a thing in the US and pretending that it's not doesn't make it not so.[/quote]
Yes but again, where's the campaign drawing attention to the male slave owners, or the men doing the lynching in response to female scapegoating? Context is relevant, and the context is that we live in an ongoing battle against misogyny, as well as racism. It is reductive to punch down to women by perpetuating the gaping double standards in society, in a bid to tackle racism.

And that's notwithstanding what other PPs have pointed out about the fact that that is broadly NOT the context in which the term is used in the UK.

I have been called a karen three time and none had anything to do with race.
The first time was when the daughter of a friend was posting some of the karen memes on Facebook and I posted why is she posting that misogynistic ageist crap and all she was doing was insulting her future self. One off her friends popped up to call me a karen.
Second time on a local Facebook selling page which specifically banned mlm sellers and recruiters.
A post must have slipped though the admin net trying to recruit for her team and flog her body butter. I got called a karen for pointing out that the group was not for mlms and she might want to take down her post before admin did. I got called a karen as I was somehow against women making money as she was offering such a great opportunity. I got called a karen again by one of her huns when I pointed out her recruitment drive failed to mention how much it would cost to join her down line.