To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

@TooYoungToNotice Well said!

@TooYoungToNotice

Of course it's misogynistic, it's now used as a slur to silence all women.

Remember women, be kind or men (and women with internalized misogyny) will shout you down.

Consider that there simply must be a reason why videos of women behaving badly surface and are subject to such public opprobrium and deserving of the original use of Karen, but you don't see the equivalent for men. For men, the incident has to be much more serious before it merits attention.

So many women are complicit in the oppression of other women. Either actively or through ignorance. You can see it on thread after thread on here. The use of terms like bitch and cow, the scorn poured on stepmothers, the scorn poured on mothers. Its endless. We've all seen the oh so useful, well why did you have kids with a loser type of rhetoric, because it's always the woman"s fault.

Women need to stop fighting other women and develop a truer sense of sisterhood. We need to stop warring over men. In the main most aren't worth it anyway.

Thinly veiled divisive posts like this are a huge part of the problem. No the use of Karen is not ok no matter how it originated or whom it is directed at, and neither are the others. Trying to justify the use of them by some arbitrary scale of insult level or who deserves to be oppressed the most or least by the patriarchy is both ridiculous and counter productive. Life is shit for so many women who still carry the burden of the majority of housework, the mental load of a marriage, the majority of childcare, the pressure to look a certain way, the pension gap, sexism in the workplace, the inability to feel safe in public spaces, domestic violence, etc etc etc. Given that it's so shit, why make it worse for each other as the OP has attempted? Of course maybe the OP is a man who enjoys using white as a pejorative to stoke tension amongst women. Man or woman, their attempt to divide should be treated with the derision it deserves.

This needs sharing again

@phishy

As a BAME person, I don't think white people have a clue what we go through. As well as overt racism, we deal with being underpaid and underpromoted compared to white female and male colleagues, patronised, uninvited, condescended, talked over and dismissed.

Yet we are still expected to prioritise the feelings of white women when they are hurt by the term Karen.

Exactly this. Sad middle aged white women trying to find some way to feel oppressed as always. But they'll say it's equal or worse to what BAME people experience as if we'll be on their side and push their problems ahead of ours.

@KittenKong

Nasty women mustn’t have opinions eh? They might start getting ideas or something...

I agree

Exactly this. Sad middle aged white women trying to find some way to feel oppressed as always. But they'll say it's equal or worse to what BAME people experience as if we'll be on their side and push their problems ahead of ours.

Not equal to. Not even similar. But still
Oppressive, offensive, silencing, bullying and misogynistic.

Really being called Karen would silence you
Seriously ?

What impact on our lives does this silly nickname really have. Does it hold us back from promotion, does it make people in authority behave differently towards us, does it allow police to treat our children differently, are we held back by profiling because we may fit in the category of being a Karen

It’s name calling women have always been silenced some far more than others but it’s a phase (and it is only that) on social media like gammon was.

I still think that it’s another way of telling some they have privilege that really gets them worked up

Would you believe a racist slur could shut down a BAME person from speaking?

Would you believe a homophobic slur could shut down a gay person from speaking?

Why is it beyond the realm of possibility that a misogynistic slur could shut down a woman from speaking?

There are endless slurs aimed specifically at women to shut them down. To silence them. To humiliate them. To dehumanise them. To delegitimise their concerns.

What are the male equivalents?

Women whose sexual boundaries are too open- slag/ whore/ slut/ harlot/ hussy/ trollop

Women whose sexual boundaries are too closed- Frigid

Conforms to gender stereotype too much- Bimbo

Conforms to gender stereotype too little- Dyke

Women who aren’t “nice” enough- Ice queen/ Battle axe/ dragon/ harpy

Women who haven’t conformed to society’s expectations of them- Spinster

Older women who don’t sexualise themselves enough- Frump

Older women who sexualise themselves too much- Mutton

Non-complaint women who need to be silenced for the good of everyone else:

1692- Witch

1985- Femi-Nazi

2020- TERF

2021 Karen

Exactly this. Sad middle aged white women trying to find some way to feel oppressed as always. But they'll say it's equal or worse to what BAME people experience as if we'll be on their side and push their problems ahead of ours

I find this interesting. You say 'sad middle aged'. So old white women and young white women don't make you feel that problems facing PoC, are not as bad as theirs?

Happy middle age women? They dont either?

When the old women were middle aged, did they do it and then just stopped?

And the young women, will they do it when they are middle aged then stop when they become 'old?

So it's not a 'white women problem' it's an age problem?

Because in my life, as a mixed race person, I couldn't put one age range on the people who have dismissed race issues.

And I find men are far more eager to dismiss race issues. Far more than women.

And in regards to this, how many people compare 'Karen' to race problems?

Because no one on here said its worse or that it has to be prioritised

Most peoples issue is that (mainly) white men (and also some women) now use it to shut any woman, of any colour, down. It is now common place for it to impact all women.

When it was just used to describe older, American racist women, no one really objected to it. Not that much, anyway.

But yes, let's keep pretending that people only have an issue because it's impacting white women and pretending it's not impacting WoC. Let's all fall out over it, while the misogynists carry on using it and laughing.

Thinly veiled divisive posts like this are a huge part of the problem.

No the use of Karen is not ok no matter how it originated or whom it is directed at, and neither are the others. Trying to justify the use of them by some arbitrary scale of insult level or who deserves to be oppressed the most or least by the patriarchy is both ridiculous and counter productive.

Life is shit for so many women who still carry the burden of the majority of housework, the mental load of a marriage, the majority of childcare, the pressure to look a certain way, the pension gap, sexism in the workplace, the inability to feel safe in public spaces, domestic violence, etc etc etc.

Given that it's so shit, why make it worse for each other as the OP has attempted? Of course maybe the OP is a man who enjoys using white as a pejorative to stoke tension amongst women.

Man or woman, their attempt to divide should be treated with the derision it deserves.

This is a very good post.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

Would you believe a racist slur could shut down a BAME person from speaking?

Would you believe a homophobic slur could shut down a gay person from speaking?

Why is it beyond the realm of possibility that a misogynistic slur could shut down a woman from speaking?

There are endless slurs aimed specifically at women to shut them down. To silence them. To humiliate them. To dehumanise them. To delegitimise their concerns.

What are the male equivalents?

Women whose sexual boundaries are too open- slag/ whore/ slut/ harlot/ hussy/ trollop

Women whose sexual boundaries are too closed- Frigid

Conforms to gender stereotype too much- Bimbo

Conforms to gender stereotype too little- Dyke

Women who aren’t “nice” enough- Ice queen/ Battle axe/ dragon/ harpy

Women who haven’t conformed to society’s expectations of them- Spinster

Older women who don’t sexualise themselves enough- Frump

Older women who sexualise themselves too much- Mutton

Non-complaint women who need to be silenced for the good of everyone else:

1692- Witch

1985- Femi-Nazi

2020- TERF

2021 Karen

I don’t think there is a vocabulary to describe men, equivalent to this.

Is it naive to suggest that cancel culture could be put to good use on theses kind of labels for women?

A racist slur comes with a whole load of history often personal

Karen is a term that I’m is popular to use at present it’s name calling so someone calling you Karen would shut you down hurt you as you know how your family have had to deal with this

Why play onto the hands of people that want to keep you quiet

@OhWhyNot

Really being called Karen would silence you Seriously ?

What impact on our lives does this silly nickname really have. Does it hold us back from promotion, does it make people in authority behave differently towards us, does it allow police to treat our children differently, are we held back by profiling because we may fit in the category of being a Karen

It’s name calling women have always been silenced some far more than others but it’s a phase (and it is only that) on social media like gammon was.

I still think that it’s another way of telling some they have privilege that really gets them worked up

No but it makes it harder for all of us when speaking out those issues.

Throughout this thread have been examples of where 'karen' had been used to shut women up when talking about things like sexual violence, pedophiles on social media etc.

Been used to poke fun at women who are just going about their own business. And when people use it, all the mysognists in the vicinity join in.

You really don't think that impacts women, of all colours?

Its not akin to a racial slur. It doesn't automatically make white women earn less. But it makes its harder to speak on those issues. For all women. Not just 'middle aged white women'.

I consider myself broad minded and not easily offended however I hate the term she is a Karen.
I hear it a lot at work from my male counterparts and it is used to put down middle aged or older women who dare to have an opinion or voice.
I hate this term.

We have always been silenced

Is suddenly being silenced with the connotations that there is privilege involved really the issue

I believe it is.

And Fuck me being called Karen wouldn’t shut any women I know up neither would I hurt them it’s a social media word of the moment

When it was just used to describe older, American racist women, no one really objected to it. Not that much, anyway.

It wasn't ever just used to describe older racist women. It grew into that in the states, but it has always had the nasty misogynistic meaning because it started with nasty incel men on Reddit.

And it never has had this "calling out racism" meaning in the mainstream in the U.K. it's about shutting up older women generally for daring to assert themselves. Karen is also a more working class name in the U.K, so real "Karens" are more likely to have to put up with shitty behaviour from the public, including from the type of arsehole man and spoilt teenager on social media who primarily use the term, than to be responsible for it.

I guess we can decide whether it's misogynistic or not by comparing it to the name that's given to white men of a certain age who complain about things too much or are racist, which would be ......?

@OhWhyNot

We have always been silenced

Is suddenly being silenced with the connotations that there is privilege involved really the issue

I believe it is.

And Fuck me being called Karen wouldn’t shut any women I know up neither would I hurt them it’s a social media word of the moment

What privilege?

Because its being applied to ALL women not just white women.

If sexist terms don't shut any women up then there should be a problem with any of them should they?

Or maybe the women you know are different to other women. Women have always been called names, to shut them up. So I object to them. I object to women being called names, because they dare share an opinion.

It wasn't ever just used to describe older racist women. It grew into that in the states, but it has always had the nasty misogynistic meaning because it started with nasty incel men on Reddit.

I wasn't aware on the incel origins but doesn't surprise me. I was talking about when it first became common to hear it. It was still misogynistic then, I agree. But it wasn't objected to on a large scale. Ops point was that if it wasn't aimed at white women no one would object.

But, in reality, far more people are objecting, now, because its aimed at all women.

I felt like disagreeing. But if I had, I'd have been a 'Karen' while he'd have been a person with an opinion

But why did you not speak up? We are validating all this bull*t by remaining silent. I don't care what others call me, if I want to say something I will

What's the point of this thread? Is it to shame UK women (who will be majority white, that's just the demographic) for objecting to misogynistic slurs against them because slurs most of us will never have heard of are used against women in another country 4500 miles away?

Many interesting views on the thread.

But I'm not convinced the thread itself positively contributes to anything. The above sums it up well

what’s the point of this thread?

A very good question. Goady fuckery I suspect.

@mustlovegin

I felt like disagreeing. But if I had, I'd have been a 'Karen' while he'd have been a person with an opinion

But why did you not speak up? We are validating all this bull*t by remaining silent. I don't care what others call me, if I want to say something I will

Its great that you never, ever have to bite your tongue.

But many women do. I now work in environment, where speaking my mind is what's expected. But not everybody does. If you work in a mysognisgtic environment, just speaking up gets you nowhere. But every people telling you are all wrong.

As a mixed race person I have worked in environments that are sexist and also where casual racisim was an issue or made a joke of.

I spoke up once because a women who was just rude all the time to everyone, kept getting her behaviour justified by the team manager, who was a black man. His justification was that the woman was black and that's what 'black women are like'.

My point was that it's still not ok to be so rude to people they would leave their job. But also 'angry, agressive black woman' is a really damaging stereotype. Its racist AND sexist

But no, I was wrong because it was true. It doesn't damage anyone if its true blah blah blah. And I was made out to be the problem. When you have come across things like this, eventually, you just know speaking up won't make anything better for you. You know speaking up will end up with you feeling shit and YOU being the one labelled as having a problem/chip on your shoulder.

If it was all just as simple as 'just speak up' everyone's lives would be a bit easier.

I have seen Asian and Black women being referred to as a ‘Karen’ locally, but it does tend to be a white middle class label. Saying that, someone said ‘Okay Karen’ the other week when he was complaining to a waitress about a non-issue, which made me laugh. I just wish there was a more relevant and prominent male equivalent.

Is Karen really aimed at all women

It’s becoming more like that. It’s just ‘shit up, bitch’ really.

As a BAME person, I don't think white people have a clue what we go through...Yet we are still expected to prioritise the feelings of white women when they are hurt by the term Karen

BAME people are not expected to prioritise the feelings of white women of a certain age when they are hurt by the term Karen. Karen is not a racial slur, it is a sexist and misogynistic one in the UK - I am not talking about the US, this is a UK-based website and its users are predominantly women of childbearing age who live in the UK.

Anyway I am not hurt by it, I am angered by it because it makes me angry that women are not allowed to have opinions and if they are over 40, even less so.