Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

DH and I were in the Isle of Skye a few years back and went to get fish and chips from a famous chippy in Portree. When we went in the two brothers who run it were speaking Gaelic. Did I think they were being rude, feel resentful or excluded or convince myself they were talking about me? No. I just thought they were speaking in their language natural to them and I was fascinated to hear it.

Gaelic is becoming popular in the highlands and islands a lot of young people speak it fluently and use it. So I expect soon there will be complaints about people switching to Gaelic when people go into pubs.

It's certainly prejudice, which is no less a sin. Whilst there are live issues around the influx of 2nd home owners and holidaymakers using accommodation limiting the housing choices of the Welsh (and other nations across the globe), this is not something inimical to the English "race". I have heard similar opinions from people in Norfolk and Cornwall, and these are both indubitably English. I even sympathise with their perspective, but it's not something that will ever be solved with bigotry and is much better addressed via tax and planning legislation.

NRTT and I appreciate it’s gone into different comments.

But what I find odd about the whole Welsh, English, Scottish and N Irish issue is how do we really distinguish between the nations.

So I’ve got Welsh and Irish grandparents. My husband has Welsh grandparents. We were born in England. So are we now ‘bad’ English or can we claim to be ‘repressed’ Welsh and Irish.

What about my friend who’s English and lives on Scotland and her children were born there. Is she now Scottish or not?

What about my neighbours who are Greek but lived in England all their lives and their kids were born in England. What are they?

What about my best friend whose parents were born in Pakistan. Is she ‘bad’ English or can she claim not to be because of her heritage.

What about my good friends kids whose dad is N Irish, but all born in England. Are they English or Irish?

Etc….

So unless we’re going down a very dodgy ‘genetic’ approach how exactly do we distinguish what ‘side’ we’re all ‘on’?

Also I live in a part of the England where their are villages that are priced out of most of the whole Country let alone the locals (million plus mark) so it’s not unique to Wales.

@JaniieJones no I don't agree. I haven't read the whole thread but I saw no meaningful examples of hate or intolerance, just one person getting hurt feelings on behalf of another person who wasn't there at the time. Oh and someone getting upset because they visited another country and the natives of that country were speaking their own language in a pub. I mean, how dare they!?

Other examples that breed anger and resentment:

The "satirical" poem that Boris Johnson allowed to be published while editor of The Spectator:

"The Scotch – what a verminous race!
Canny, pushy, chippy, they’re all over the place, Battening off us with false bonhomie, Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.
Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!
Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!
Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran
As provocatively, offensively foreign!
It’s time Hadrian’s Wall was refortified
To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.
I would go further. The nation
Deserves not merely isolation
But comprehensive extermination.
We must not flinch from a solution.
(I await legal prosecution.)"

I wonder why Scottish people were resentful about that?

Or his comment that "a pound spent in Croydon is of far more value than a pound spent in Strathclyde".

Or the refusal to acknowledge the atrocities committed by British soldiers in Northern Ireland during The Troubles.

Etc. etc. etc.

The chip on the shoulder is there for a reason. If we want to mend relations in the UK, we need to acknowledge the problems and address them. Then, hopefully, prejudice will dissipate.

'We did kind of conquer them and subjugate their culture'

No, 'we' didn't. Our ancestors did. HTH.

@MeasuredApproach

Other examples that breed anger and resentment:

The "satirical" poem that Boris Johnson allowed to be published while editor of The Spectator:

"The Scotch – what a verminous race!
Canny, pushy, chippy, they’re all over the place, Battening off us with false bonhomie, Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.
Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!
Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!
Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran
As provocatively, offensively foreign!
It’s time Hadrian’s Wall was refortified
To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.
I would go further. The nation
Deserves not merely isolation
But comprehensive extermination.
We must not flinch from a solution.
(I await legal prosecution.)"

I wonder why Scottish people were resentful about that?

Or his comment that "a pound spent in Croydon is of far more value than a pound spent in Strathclyde".

Or the refusal to acknowledge the atrocities committed by British soldiers in Northern Ireland during The Troubles.

Etc. etc. etc.

The chip on the shoulder is there for a reason. If we want to mend relations in the UK, we need to acknowledge the problems and address them. Then, hopefully, prejudice will dissipate.

Or this nursery rhyme

Taffy was a Welshman”

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief;
Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of beef;
I went to Taffy’s house, Taffy wasn’t in;
I jumped upon his Sunday hat and poked it with a pin.

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a sham;
Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of lamb;
I went to Taffy’s house, Taffy was away,
I stuffed his socks with sawdust and filled his shoes with clay.

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a cheat,
Taffy came to my house, and stole a piece of meat;
I went to Taffy’s house, Taffy was not there,
I hung his coat and trousers to roast before a fire.

My daughter had bomb emojis and "up the Ra" posted on her tiktoks by so called Irish Americans. All for being English

I assume you meant IRA?

Ironic, perhaps, that the atrocity of 9/11 happened on the soil of those who did so much to fund them - a point I made to some Boston Irish people not long afterwards

Needless to say it didn't go down well, not least because they couldn't think of an answer

Always nice to be hated because of the country you were born in. Feels really good. Best to just ignore whether someone is a good, decent, kind person and just go straight for the jugular anyway because they are English and therefore must be a bad person and personally responsible for a) historical events which happened before they were born b) the actions of the government even though they too detest them c) the house buying and holiday habits of people they don't even know.

"Because at last the English are starting to show some independence. We chose not to be part of a homologous structure in Europe and instead forge ahead shedding ourselves of the bureaucratic encumbrances Europe entails. Sadly not all our nations agreed.
The French don't like us cos we saved their sorry asses in two world wars and they've never got over it!"

@cuparfull Our nations???!!!! The other three nations don't belong to England!

More people live in England than Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland, so government is always going to do what the majority vote for. So it's a bit difficult to say that all 4 should be equal. What does that mean in reality? Obviously, everyone in the UK should have equality of opportunity when it comes to accessing decent healthcare, education and all other facilities that make it possible to live well. And I would agree that the BBC etc ought to remember that school holidays are not the same and broadcast accordingly. But it's tricky when it comes to voting. If you argue that the countries should have equal weight in political decisions such as Brexit or whether there's a Tory government, then in reality it means that approx 11 million people would determine the future of 55 million. Yet at the same time I completely see that if you are Scottish, Welsh or N Irish you might feel that even if your whole country voted the same way it wouldn't count if the majority in England voted differently. It's a problem, for sure, but I don't know the solution. Devolution covers many of the things which affect people on a day to day basis but not everything - maybe that's the down side of being in a union, but if you choose it then you do kind of have to accept majority rule. And Scotland, at least did choose it. Wales doesn't seem to have much appetite for independence.

We did kind of conquer them and subjugate their culture

How old are you? I don't think "we" did anything.

Best to just ignore whether someone is a good, decent, kind person and just go straight for the jugular anyway because they are English and therefore must be a bad person and personally responsible for a) historical events which happened before they were born b) the actions of the government even though they too detest them c) the house buying and holiday habits of people they don't even know

Quite.

@JaniieJones

'We did kind of conquer them and subjugate their culture'

No, 'we' didn't. Our ancestors did. HTH.

It is correct that 'we' did not conquer anyone, our ancestors did.

However 'we' still benefit financially from those actions, the relative wealth of nations today is rooted in those actions years ago.

Until that is ironed out, some resentment will remain.

I do not feel personally guilty or like I need to apologise for colonial activity, but I understand the resentment about where countries are today.

Why on earth are you still with your husband? He sounds like a nasty, bullying dickhead.

Plaid are stirring up a shit storm in Gwynedd, Anglesey and down the west coast of Wales. Its ironically affecting planning so developers are now leery of building in these areas. Their architects are coming up against a wall in the councils. One development in Anglesey half of the homes will be housing association 56 in total. The local feeling is that they should be given them because they're local.

Holiday homes, Airbnb even when owned by locals is being frothed about. They cannot see the jobs from tourism the economic benefits all the year around.

A lot of businesses are open 52 weeks of the year because of tourism boosts.

How do you unpick that though? Scotland certainly benefitted from the British empire. If England has wrongs to right then so does the rest of the UK.

Do we go right back to the Enclosures Act to right the wrongs done to our ancestors and seize land currently occupied by the landed gentry? It's impossible for every nation on the world to go back and correct all its historical wrongs - you'd be hard put to find a country that hasn't ever engaged in anything unsavoury.

Apologies made by people who haven't actually done anything wrong, to people who are not victims, is pointless.

What about the Danes? they spent hundreds of years invading Britain and raping and pillaging and sacking villages.
And the Scots regularly invaded Northumbria burning down whole villages and castles.
Do Northumbrians still hate the Scots?
And what about the Normans, they invaded and eventually colonised the whole of England.
The Welsh often worked with the English mercians and Wessex to fight off the Danes. Drove them back to east anglia.
The British isles and Ireland have a fascinating history. It’s why we have so many castles.

@EvenRosesHaveThorns I'm a non Welsh speaker but have a knowledge of the Welsh language, I'm Welsh and live in Wales and if I went into a cafe in Llandeilo, which I have, there is no way I would pick up on the locals switching from English to Welsh. Not all English words are translatable into Welsh. Who would have thought there isn't a Welsh word for dildo?

It may be your perceived experience of being a tourist in Wales but Wales is not just one village, there is a North and a South and a bit in between so you can't generalise that all the Welsh do this.

Presumably Welsh owners of property are not obliged to sell houses to people they don't want to, or rent holiday lets to people they disapprove of? But many properties have been sold to English families by the sounds of it? If it has everyone gnashing their teeth so much then how has it been allowed to happen? If I decided to sell my home tomorrow and it was viewed by somebody I disliked or who I thought might life difficult for my old neighbours then I would have the option to say thanks but no thanks, next please. You can't buy a house if somebody isn't willing to sell it to you in the first place.

Ffs. How about people should stop being vile to or about other people!?

Holiday homes, Airbnb even when owned by locals is being frothed about. They cannot see the jobs from tourism the economic benefits all the year around.

It is not frothing to be concerned about AirBnBs etc., they ruin local communities. Research shows holiday homes benefit local areas less than family homes.

Janiiejones

For someone who is always banging on about xenophobia you sure like to get a dig in at the Scots

@Marchitectmummy

What I find really odd about each of the UK nations dislike for each other is England is pretty much a mix up of the other 3 nations. Thr majority of people I know who are English actually have a parent or grandparent or great grandparent who I'd Scottish Irish or Welsh. My family is totally mixed between them all through history.

So when people direct hate at England what are those hatng, the integration or their ancestors who have left to settle in England or what?

I've spent time in all 4 countries as we love exploring close to home and have to say I've never been subjected to anything but pleasant behaviour other than a bit of abuse from a few drunken yobs in Glasgow. I love our nations similarities and differences and find it exciting that languages are back flourishing, why wouldn't I.

As for the government at least Scotland, Wales and Ireland all have their own national government, England doesn't.

I'm not against devolution for England at all. In fact, I think it's a great idea. But this is privilege right there if you can't see that England doesn't actually need devolution. It doesn't matter what Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland vote for because, even collectively, their votes will never, ever make a difference to the British government. The British government is almost always made up entirely of the majority English vote. This means that laws that are passed represent the majority party as voted for by the English, while people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland need to always accept laws that they didn't vote for. This was why devolution happened, to give the other nations a bit of control over their own affairs. The governing party in England is generally always a majority English vote, so this is less of a pressing issue for England.

I’m English but have lived in Wales for 20+ years. I haven’t heard anything negative out and about but working in an office I would hear the odd negative comment towards the English as despite my English accent people didn’t realise I wasn’t Welsh. I did tell them whenever I heard such a comment.

@BabyBearRus

Booboosweet same here. I actually felt queasy when everyone cheered when England missed a penalty. There used to be a light-heartedness to it, but I feel that has definitely changed in recent years.

OP I'm Welsh but was working in London during the 2016 euros and watched the quarter and semi finals there. Everyone else in the pub was cheering for Portugal rather than Wales, so it's not a one-sided thing. Surely your Welsh family members can explain why there's so much resentment, given things like shops selling England team t-shirts, having English team banners put up etc. There was no suggestion the whole UK would be getting a bank holiday if Wales had won in 2016....

Out of interest did you or your husband go and support the poor woman who was getting abuse?

FYI there's now a welsh-specific forum on MN if anyone is interested in expanding on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/draignet