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Is racism against the English acceptable?

792 replies

BabyBearRus · 26/07/2021 23:58

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

OP posts:
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MarieIVanArkleStinks · 27/07/2021 11:12

I think that shouting 'Poor us!' at a time straight after:

  • mass-scale protest because of a black man being murdered in the street
  • footballers being booed for taking the knee and subjected to racial abuse for missing a penalty
  • other serious issues coinciding with these events like the broad resurgence of anti-Semitism
  • the fact that the education system - sometimes health too - are failing in particular the disenfranchised, marginalized traveller community

is tone-deaf and reprehensible.

Anti-English bigotry is unpleasant. It's not acceptable, it shows ignorance, and it does not feel good to be on the other end. It's also impossible to measure it on the same scale. As a Causasian British woman, as far as memory serves me I have never:

  • had my job opportunities affected
  • had my criminal record affected
  • been physically attacked
  • been denied educational opportunity or had access to healthcare affected
  • been stopped and searched by police
  • been or abused in the street (though this has happened by men and for different reasons)

because of the colour of my skin.

Dismissing these issues as 'it's just as bad whoever's doing it' is disingenuous and misses the complete picture. That picture is one of institutional and systemic racism.

znaika · 27/07/2021 11:13

@Wroxie

The fact that the majority of people here seem to think that white people slagging off other white people is remotely comparable to the systemic, government-sponsored and very often deadly racism against black and brown people is... well, I don't want to get banned, so I won't tell you what I really think of you.
Literally not one person has said that. There are different types of bigotry. We must understand them all.
Cyw2018 · 27/07/2021 11:18

@EvenRosesHaveThorns

No, it's happened three times and I go to Wales multiple times per year, I never said it was 'every single time' but do carry on misquoting me and making wild generalisations
Blimey you're unlucky, I've lived in North Wales for 17 years and never experienced it!! I also understand enough Welsh to know that they are not slagging me off in welsh.

It is pure paranoia!

People at work flip frequently between Welsh and English, people on Facebook flip frequently between Welsh and English in the comments section (at least the translate function provides the occasional comedy gold), heck even my 3 year old is starting to speak Wenglish. It's what happens when you live somewhere where so many people are truly bilingual in the same two languages.

It's not all about you, get a grip!

TheSkatesOfCoachBombay · 27/07/2021 11:18

I do always grin at "they started speaking Welsh the minute walked in" you'll find we were speaking it before you walked in.

This happened to me. I was a hospitality manager in mid Wales, me and the waitresses were discussing in Welsh table arrangements, a guest walked in we smiled at them and continued our conversation in Welsh. Said guest then turned around and said "that's rude you shouldn't speak that when we are in the room"

I mean I apologised because I'm customer facing and tried to explain we have been discussing the table arrangemts for a while in Welsh before they arrived, but they were having none of it. They even left a trip advisor review saying how rude the staff are speaking Welsh 😂😂 baffled.

SueSaid · 27/07/2021 11:21

'wasn't it the Portuguese that started the slave trade too? I remember going down a google wormhole reading up about the British empire. There was the Spanish empire, French empire, Dutch empire. But no one mentions those it seems. I hate that being English means you are tainted by association even though the bigotry is based on events hundreds of years ago the current English are not responsible for history, they are responsible for now and the future'

Exactly! I'm surprised we haven't had the very offensive 'white women's tears' yet.

Judging people based purely on their nationality is shit. We all know it, posters like MarieStinks need to stop desperately justifying it.

Debate and protest the issue fgs not the nationality!

IceandIndigo · 27/07/2021 11:23

This whole thread smacks of white privilege. Of course it's not nice that people make prejudiced comments, but it's not in any way comparable to the racism that Black and brown people face. If English and giving birth in Wales you and your baby are not more likely to die. You are not more likely to be stopped and searched by the police. You are not more likely to be a victim of crime. You are not more likely to die of Covid. If you go for a job you are not going to be offered a lower salary than a Welsh person for the same work. You will not be deported back to England.

SueSaid · 27/07/2021 11:26

'The fact that the majority of people here seem to think that white people slagging off other white people is remotely comparable to the systemic, government-sponsored and very often deadly racism against black and brown people is... well, I don't want to get banned, so I won't tell you what I really think of you.'

'Literally not one person has said that. There are different types of bigotry. We must understand them all'

Yes we aren't saying xenophobia is worse than racism we are saying intolerance and hate based on nationality or race is wrong. Posters really can't object to racism then sneer at 'white people'. Well people can and do but it makes them look as bad as racists and why tf would they want that!

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 27/07/2021 11:27

Just because some people have it worse, it doesn't mean that other people can't talk about their own experiences or feelings. Otherwise MN would shut down completely since most of the issues discussed on here are not that bad, comparatively speaking

SueSaid · 27/07/2021 11:28

'This whole thread smacks of white privilege'

🥱

This whole thread smacks of people saying intolerance and hate is wrong. Don't you agree?!

oneglassandpuzzled · 27/07/2021 11:30

@Swisslady

There’s a lot of prejudice against the English due to how they’ve historically tried to steal and rule other lands, inflicted a lot of pain on foreign people for their own gain.

Not racism though.

You mean British not English. It wasn’t an English Empire. It was disproportionally assisted by the Scots and defended with the help of a lot of Irish soldiers in the British Army.

Any Victorian cemetery in India or Pakistan will reveal this to be the case.

Glasgow was the second City of Empire.

SueSaid · 27/07/2021 11:31

'You mean British not English. It wasn’t an English Empire. It was disproportionally assisted by the Scots and defended with the help of a lot of Irish soldiers in the British Army.Any Victorian cemetery in India or Pakistan will reveal this to be the case. Glasgow was the second City of Empire.'

👏

The scot nats won't like this one little bit..

oneglassandpuzzled · 27/07/2021 11:34

An inconvenient truth.

My own Scottish forebears made their money in India. The Irish ancestors provided generations of soldiers. I’ve seen copies of death certificates showing that they died India and Pakistan. The Scots made money in tea gardens that lasted three or four generations and allowed members of the family to live very comfortably.

MeasuredApproach · 27/07/2021 11:35

I think this debate is a lot more nuanced than this post, really. No, prejudice against a person simply because they are part of a particular group is not acceptable. However, it is important to understand the nuances of the relationships between the nations of the United Kingdom.

For example, England colonised two of the other nations and as a result of that colonisation, native languages were crushed (or, in the case of Ireland, actually deliberately eradicated), and other really aggressive policies were put in place. Scotland, while not colonised, was joined with England involuntarily (nobles voted for it, though arguably were coerced due to financial ruin, and it was incredibly unpopular among the people at the time). After the Jacobite rebellion, Gaelic and Highland life were systematically and deliberately crushed by the British (yes, lowland Scots were also a part of that, just as native Indians were used in the oppression of the Indian people during the time when the UK colonised India). My point is that there is some difficult history there, and the UK is founded on relationships that were never equal. Though these things are in the past, they are really only a few generations ago, and these kinds of resentments live on in songs and are passed down for several generations. This is just a natural human thing.

While all of that is in the past, imperialist attitudes do persist. It is simply a fact that the UK is dominated by England, and often people from the three smaller constituent nations do not feel that they have an equal part in what should be a four-nation kingdom. From little things like there being no television for Scottish children for the first three weeks of summer to much larger and more subtle things, like the presentation of Scots on TV up until the late 90s as drunks or layabouts. Or, the eradication of Scots due to the imperialist attitude that only Standard English is correct. There are many, many, many things, from the obvious to the subtle, that cause these relationships to be rather prickly.

So, no, nobody should ever be prejudiced, but it is important to understand the reasons why people often feel the way they do. If more was done to really address these often imperceptible concerns then there would be more hope of actually saving the UK. (And I say imperceptible, as a lot of anger in Ireland/Scotland/Wales comes from people feeling like their identity, culture and worth are ignored or trodden on but not being fully aware of why they feel this way). Sadly, the Tories seem hell-bent on deepening these rifts, not mending them, so I suspect the chasm will only get bigger.

On a slightly lighter note, maybe your neighbour was just pissed off at the influx of visitors! When I lived in Edinburgh, lots of people used to curse the "bloody Americans" during the festival, but it didn't mean they were prejudiced against Americans - they were just annoyed at the influx of them to their city that meant they couldn't go about their daily business as usual!

Clangerschick1 · 27/07/2021 11:37

The only ‘racist’ language I’ve ever heard in the street was the first time I went to Birmingham as a student. Waking down the street heard ‘you f white wanker’ shouted at a bus driver. Shocked me as had never heard anything remotely like this before. Discussed it at the time with a friend who said police /courts wouldn’t be interested as they don’t care if it’s directed at white people.

CounsellorTroi · 27/07/2021 11:37

*Blimey you're unlucky, I've lived in North Wales for 17 years and never experienced it!! I also understand enough Welsh to know that they are not slagging me off in welsh.

It is pure paranoia!*

Indeed. The Welsh language is not something the Welsh have made up to annoy and exclude English people! We speak it because it's our first language and mother tongue.

namehasbeenchanged1 · 27/07/2021 11:39

As ever on these threads someone shares an experience and loads of other people shout it down, "No, that can't possibly ever have happened, stop causing trouble, that's never happened TO MEEEEEEE." Isn't that the point of an online discussion - to be exposed to other people's experiences that you wouldn't otherwise?

SchrodingersImmigrant · 27/07/2021 11:42

@TheSkatesOfCoachBombay

I do always grin at "they started speaking Welsh the minute walked in" you'll find we were speaking it before you walked in.

This happened to me. I was a hospitality manager in mid Wales, me and the waitresses were discussing in Welsh table arrangements, a guest walked in we smiled at them and continued our conversation in Welsh. Said guest then turned around and said "that's rude you shouldn't speak that when we are in the room"

I mean I apologised because I'm customer facing and tried to explain we have been discussing the table arrangemts for a while in Welsh before they arrived, but they were having none of it. They even left a trip advisor review saying how rude the staff are speaking Welsh 😂😂 baffled.

The audacity. In Wales😂
trailrunner · 27/07/2021 11:44

I‘m really taken aback at some of the posters who think it’s ok to just repeat slurs without thinking for one moment that those slurs are triggering for those who have been in those situations before. Why do we need to throw them around like sweets, including those aimed at English people? It’s quite harsh language and there is no need. That’s all I wanted to say.

MeasuredApproach · 27/07/2021 11:44

@SorryWoman

Its weird how if you mentioned something like WW2 and the holocaust in relation to germany (not even a century ago now) there would be a general recoiling as if you were being totally unreasonable (which you would be), but somehow the English are supposed to continue repenting for the empire.

I also think some national cultural identities only exist in the sense of being "not English" or "anti English": if they were to let go of anti English feeling, they would need to dig deeper to search for what the narrative is that holds the national community together in spirit. It's easier to just keep up the prejudice.

I think the thing is that you say "continue repenting", but when has Britain ever repented for the Empire? In Germany, it is a huge part of the curriculum, learning about the abuses of the past and why it was wrong. In the UK, we actually still have museums celebrating that past. The Empire is still celebrated as something good, while the genocide, concentration camps, exploitation of other countries and their peoples and resources, and the eradication of other languages and cultures is totally brushed over. This attitude stinks.
CounsellorTroi · 27/07/2021 11:46

This happened to me. I was a hospitality manager in mid Wales, me and the waitresses were discussing in Welsh table arrangements, a guest walked in we smiled at them and continued our conversation in Welsh. Said guest then turned around and said "that's rude you shouldn't speak that when we are in the room"

Would they have done the same if they were in France and the staff were speaking French?

foxandbee · 27/07/2021 11:46

Spot on Measured

urghicba · 27/07/2021 11:49

My daughter had bomb emojis and "up the Ra" posted on her tiktoks by so called Irish Americans. All for being English.

Funny, especially considering we are irish/Welsh but she was born in England.

I find this generation to be one of the most nasty, spiteful and hate filled I have ever come across. A lot of the hate spewed seems to be coming from the USA

TheSkatesOfCoachBombay · 27/07/2021 11:52

@CounsellorTroi

This happened to me. I was a hospitality manager in mid Wales, me and the waitresses were discussing in Welsh table arrangements, a guest walked in we smiled at them and continued our conversation in Welsh. Said guest then turned around and said "that's rude you shouldn't speak that when we are in the room"

Would they have done the same if they were in France and the staff were speaking French?

Probably not, I think sometimes though people know French is the language of France, and it's a given the population will be speaking it.

For some unknown reason there isn't a acceptance that Welsh is the language of Wales and spoken widely.

I agree it's not as prevelant as French, and the entire population don't speak it. That's the only thing I can think of. 🤷🏻‍♀️

MeasuredApproach · 27/07/2021 11:55

@BabyBearRus

OuiOuiKitty you have got me wrong. I definitely think that each nation has a distinctive identify. And that is a wonderful thing. I always cry when I sing the Welsh national anthem (as well as the English and Irish depending on the occasion). I am arguing that there shouldn't be an anti anything. And given that all our nations are such close neighbours, I honestly think we need to have far more comraderie than we currently have.
@BabyBearRus While I agree with this, I do think that it is difficult to have camaraderie when people feel resentful that they are not valued in the UK. I can't speak for Wales, but I know that in Scotland lots of the resentment comes from the political system. Scotland has voted consistently against the Conservatives since the 1950s (first Labour, now SNP), but the Scottish vote never changes the government, meaning that people in Scotland are always governed by people they didn't vote for. Scotland is a nation, a country, not a region, so this just breeds anger and resentment. This is just one example, but there are a million reasons why people get resentful. They shouldn't take it out on individual English people just because they are English, but unfortunately it seems to be human nature to blame an individual who is seen to represent a group rather than thinking about and addressing the real issue, i.e. the unfairness of the UK.

I honestly think that if the UK was fairer and all four nations were equal, there would be no prejudice against the English. I don't see Irish/Scottish/Welsh people being prejudiced to each other, and I think that's why. The people from other smaller nations aren't seen to be representing a dominant force that people resent, so there isn't much prejudice.

Again, I want to be clear that prejudice is always wrong. But if we want to stop prejudiced views from happening, we have to address its root causes. Sadly, there is no appetite in England for really looking at why so many people in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are upset and disgruntled with the UK.

CorianderBee · 27/07/2021 11:56

I mean you can't be racist towards the English because it's not a race. If you mean xenophobic then it's not pleasant but I can understand it somewhat.

We did kind of conquer them and subjugate their culture.

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