Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

Which sadly Drakeford can not see. Tax the Tourists, the tourists leave, the tourists leave, you have poverty, you have poverty, you have reliance upon the state, you have UBI, you have completed Communist Bingo!

Drakeford cares only about his voting base in the South. The rest of Wales is unimportant as far as he is concerned. We depend on tourists up her in the North but the hordes this year are horrible.

Rude, entitled and clearly would rather be in their all inclusive beach prisons in Turkey and similar. I'm still shaking my head at the young women leaving the campsite at Capel Curig in their high heels and dressed for clubbing in Marbella ( it was raining as well). I'm afraid they must have got a bit of a shock when they got to the pub!

But... "gammon" doesn't mean all white people. It's specifically targeting over-privileged, racist, bleating, ignorant, entitled people. You can find it unpleasant if you like but if you are offended by it personally, then maybe think about why that is. If the shoe isn't for you then don't concern yourself with it.

"But I have encountered when going into a local cafe, when everyone is speaking English they will suddenly switch to Welsh, etc. when they hear you speak. Not paranoia but has quite clearly happened a few times."

Every time I read comments like this, I wonder how the person knew what language the people were speaking before they walked in. Are they hanging around outside listening in before entering? Lip-reading through the glass? What are these places where people are speaking so loudly and projecting their voices that people walking in can hear their conversation so clearly from the moment they open the door? I am usually not aware of what language people are speaking in coffee shops as they don't broadcast their conversation to the entire shop, and I am focusing on finding a table/getting food for myself. I might notice someone speaking a foreign language at a nearby table after I have sat down, but not from the very moment I walk through the door so that I would notice a language change.

These "anecdotes" about Welsh speaking that appear from time to time on here are actually pretty unlikely when you think them through.

And I still maintain that the idea that people speak English happily to each other and then swap to Welsh as soon as someone English comes in the door (and somehow they magically know they are English before they open their mouths) is a nonsense. If they speak Welsh they speak Welsh and were speaking Welsh to each other anyway. It's like moaning about Germans speaking German to each other

A lot of bilingual people speak a mix of languages anyway. You are chatting away and the other language's word or expression pops into your head first and you know the other person understands it so you use it. Nothing to do with annoying an audience.

These "anecdotes" about Welsh speaking that appear from time to time on here are actually pretty unlikely when you think them through

Cross post!

It's not acceptable to hurl abuse at anyone, but I do agree with @SirVixofVixHall. Second homes and Airbnbs are a scourge, destroy communities and should be banned.

@Elphame I know that pub and went out with a guy who worked there back in the mid 90s and can just imagine the faces when those girls walked in dressed like that 🤣 it was all hiking boots and climbing brands in my day and probably still is.

simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Empire

Apologies for wiki link but as an example many other countries had empires. Spain until very recently.

So please can we stop the 'yeah but no but the British empire and English people are all entitled football hooligans' nonsense.

You don't like the English because you are a bigot. Stop trying to justify it!

Yanbu at all. My own dear mother (Scottish, lifelong socialist, obsessively against brexit) thinks it's absolutely fine to slag off the English.

She's convinced that Scottish people are all like her, but that English people are like the ones on the news starting fights at football matches.

She also thinks they shouldn't be allowed to 'bring us their covid' but also that Scotland is a uniquely outward looking, welcoming country.

I don't get drawn. 'yes mum' is the easiest response.

@BrozTito

1. It was overwhelmingley welsh teachers beating welsh kids 2. Wtf has that got to do with any modern englander? 3. You want to compare that to the belgians 14 million dead in africa? Germany in namibia? France in indo china? They were horrific but are never, ever mentioned in the contextof colonial history. 4. The english/welsh relationship has been great compared to 99% of worldwide neighbourly relationships. Bigot picking out tiny non events centuries ago to try justify their embarrassing inferiority complex look like massive man child arses. Saw some truly pathetic stuff from supposed grown adults in the euros, including the Italian newspapers and captain being fucking rude and a terrible winner after just barely scraping a win. They wouldnt get away with it with other nations. No mention either of their support rammed full of actual proper saluting, self proclaimed fascists.

Outside of England and the UK people do learn about the colonialists (English, Belgian, French or German). French are still notorious for their treatment of (former) colonies and inspire dislike in much of the world. Some other countries may have reformed their image (though personally I think Belgium didn't get a smidge of the flak it deserved for the atrocities in Congo and other places). I think much of the problem with the perception of England is the prominent monarchy which is like a signal to the world that the nation as a whole still more or less proudly accepts the colonialist foundations it was built on. Spain, Netherlands etc also still have royal families but their importance and prominence is greatly reduced, they don't sing about them in their national anthems etc.

@BabyBearRus

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

OP racism is never acceptable. White people get it less, and therefore don't feel the true coldness of it and how it hurts as much as, say, a Pakistani person who hears nasty 'p-ki' comments almost daily (I say this as a white person). Racism is not limited to any one skin colour or nationality or ethnicity. It's as ugly and hurtful no matter who it's directed against.

Not racism, but its still not acceptable.

@BrozTito

A scottish girl told me the other day that the english 'banned teaching scottish history until 2006'

Well, she was wrong. I was educated in Scotland in the late 70s early 80s and it was very focused on Scots history and people. When the National Curriculum was created in England and Wales in the late 80s it did not apply to Scotland. interesting that she believes it to be true, though...

Racism is not acceptable, but it is fact.

We've a long long history of racism, colonization, etc. It's not that long ago, and it still remains rampant in our society today.

I've had no direct involvement in that, I'm not responsible, but I don't expect the repercussions of that to end for many many generations. In the future I hope people with judge us English based on our actions now and going forward, not on our long lost imperialist past.

Racist is rampant in other countries too. It's not just a vestige of English colonialism.

The fact that the majority of people here seem to think that white people slagging off other white people is remotely comparable to the systemic, government-sponsored and very often deadly racism against black and brown people is... well, I don't want to get banned, so I won't tell you what I really think of you.

Thanks to all the people who think I am lying through my teeth about the switch from English to Welsh speaking at a small cafe in Wales. Yes, I have nothing better to do than point score, clearly, and fabricate my own experiences. I have chosen to contribute to a debate, as everyone here is. I think Wales and Welsh people in general are absolutely wonderful and yet it makes me uncomfortable that a very small minority, at a small local cafe - Ie the sort of place where it isn't little tables and separate conversations but a big overall group multi conversation between staff and customers - yes, I go in, people are audibly chatting away in English, I find a table, read the menu, go to the till (in the old days), open my.mouth, greet and speak English and then get 'looks' and the entire cafe around me turns into speaking Welsh. I would not make this up!!!!

@JaniieJones wasn't it the Portuguese that started the slave trade too? I remember going down a google wormhole reading up about the British empire. There was the Spanish empire, French empire, Dutch empire. But no one mentions those it seems. I hate that being English means you are tainted by association even though the bigotry is based on events hundreds of years ago the current English are not responsible for history, they are responsible for now and the future. Sadly it seems it's human nature that drove those empires and drives the current xenophobia. Someone posted once about how we are genetically programmed to fear strangers due to evolutionary threat.

If the shoe isn't for you then don't concern yourself with it

Wow, nasty. Does this apply to all people who feel offended on a regular basis?

yes, I go in, people are audibly chatting away in English, I find a table, read the menu, go to the till (in the old days), open my.mouth, greet and speak English and then get 'looks' and the entire cafe around me turns into speaking Welsh. I would not make this up!!!!

So you ate always the only non-Welsh speaking person in the cafe when this happens? Every single time?

Are not ate!

No, it's happened three times and I go to Wales multiple times per year, I never said it was 'every single time' but do carry on misquoting me and making wild generalisations

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Depends what they're saying in Welsh Troi. If they are slagging off a woman just because she is English, that's unacceptable whatever language they are saying it in

Of course it is. But I got the impression the poster resented them speaking Welsh full stop. It’s not clear whether being in a shop with her husband and people “speaking Welsh so she couldn’t understand” and the women slagging her off were part of the same incident. Apologies if it was.

You said "a few times" so it was not clear how many. So each of the times you have been the only non-Welsh speaker in the cafe? Where in Wales is this?

Sorry, that was to @EvenRosesHaveThorns

@Wroxie Race threads on MN are nothing if not very bemusing. It really is like looking into a whole different world for me sometimes. The sheer self-delusion is wild!!!!