Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

Why do so many women rush to defend the right of men to be in women's spaces on the basis it wouldn't bother them so shouldn't bother anyone else? That's pretty much the most "I'm alright Jack" shitty argument possible, yet there are always posters on threads like this falling over themselves to post that they don't give a shiny shit about teenaged girls or vulnerable women, just about themselves and men.

I hate buying bras and knickers with men loitering, and I'm a grown arse woman

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Why do so many women rush to defend the right of men to be in women's spaces on the basis it wouldn't bother them so shouldn't bother anyone else? That's pretty much the most "I'm alright Jack" shitty argument possible, yet there are always posters on threads like this falling over themselves to post that they don't give a shiny shit about teenaged girls or vulnerable women, just about themselves and men.

because the OUTSIDE of a woman's changing room is not a woman space, and a shop is definitively NOT a "woman's space".

I am curious, will you also ban lesbian from lingerie shops?

No, I said I would ban men. A man is someone with a Y chromosome and a penis, it’s not a term for someone who is sexually attracted to women. Why would your interpretation of that statement include lesbians when I never mentioned them? Do you think that lesbians are somehow closer to being men than they are women?

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Why do so many women rush to defend the right of men to be in women's spaces on the basis it wouldn't bother them so shouldn't bother anyone else? That's pretty much the most "I'm alright Jack" shitty argument possible, yet there are always posters on threads like this falling over themselves to post that they don't give a shiny shit about teenaged girls or vulnerable women, just about themselves and men.

You are the one who doesn't give a shiny shit about teenage girls if you try to refuse them the right to have their own father around, and waiting for them outside the changing rooms.

@pleasedonttextmyman

and you don't have to be a single father to take care of your kids!

Even a happily married man can take their daughter's shopping, even if they both would rather do something else, but it's not a MUM"S job to drive your daughter to a shop ffs.

Good point. I suppose I said single fathers because my Dad was one when I was a teen girl growing up. But you're right - all Dads single or otherwise should be able to take their teen daughters shopping without being worried about being branded a perve.

Most men know women buy bras. Even if you banned them from shops, they’d still know women buy bras. The solution is to not see owning a bra as shameful.

Why do so many women rush to defend the right of men to be in women's spaces

The area in a communal shop outside a changing area is not a women's space.

@Kona84

Bra sizes are a foreign language to most women. It wouldn’t bother me

It's more likely to bother teenagers - seen experiments done exploring brains that show they suffer more with embarrassment - and perhaps women who more frequently enounter unwanted male attention due to large breast size which this shop caters for.

There's pleaty of help with bra sizing on internet including brassimo pages - though sometimes having an expert sort out style and sizing can be helpful especially for first or teen bras.

This thread does feel like it's one time forgot as internet shopping is a big thing even my 70+ relatives manage it.

I think the real issue is the shop layout - move the sofa and I expect most of the problem would be gone though I can't image DH or DS hanging round anyway - when I did do bra shopping in RL when kids were young DH took them off else where to give me time and space to get sorted in my own time - though perhaps mobile phones have past this thread by as well or meeting up later is too complicated.

Maybe the men were there because the women they were with wanted their opinions

I wonder do the same women do the same when their men are buying condoms or viagra? 😂😂

If men are trying Viagra before they buy in the middle of a shop, they’ve got bigger problems than who’s waiting on the sofa!

exactly
WTF even are some of these comments lol

Why do so many women rush to defend the right of men to be in women's spaces

OUTSIDE a changing room is a communal* space.

I'm really surprised by the voting. I don't think you're unreasonable at all, OP. I would have been excruciatingly embarrassed in that situation when I was a young teenager. It is becoming increasingly clear to me, however, that an astonishingly large number of people, including women, apparently have no empathy with the natural anxieties of girls around their bodies, and no respect for their capacity to assert boundaries in that respect. All of that sort of thing is apparently prudishness and pearl-clutching, and nothing could be worse than being a prude.

I've never been for a bra fitting and am honestly astonished that men hang around in the waiting area. Surely any decent man would understand this could make women and girls uncomfortable? It is honestly baffling to me, and I'm usually okay at seeing both sides of an argument. Or maybe not; I am also baffled by women who insist on having their husbands in close proximity when choosing clothing. It's something I would never do because I'm not that interested in my husband's opinion on what I wear. But maybe I'm the odd one here; it's quite possible.

@feelingmehtoday

Why do so many women rush to defend the right of men to be in women's spaces

The area in a communal shop outside a changing area is not a women's space.

It kinda is. I wouldn’t say Bravissimo is a communal shop either. It’s a shop for women. @OneTC you wtf’ed my comment about moving train carriages. A thoughtful man would be aware that many women would certainly notice of, if not be afraid to be alone with a man at night.

@SoftDay

I'm really surprised by the voting. I don't think you're unreasonable at all, OP. I would have been excruciatingly embarrassed in that situation when I was a young teenager. It is becoming increasingly clear to me, however, that an astonishingly large number of people, including women, apparently have no empathy with the natural anxieties of girls around their bodies, and no respect for their capacity to assert boundaries in that respect. All of that sort of thing is apparently prudishness and pearl-clutching, and nothing could be worse than being a prude.

I've never been for a bra fitting and am honestly astonished that men hang around in the waiting area. Surely any decent man would understand this could make women and girls uncomfortable? It is honestly baffling to me, and I'm usually okay at seeing both sides of an argument. Or maybe not; I am also baffled by women who insist on having their husbands in close proximity when choosing clothing. It's something I would never do because I'm not that interested in my husband's opinion on what I wear. But maybe I'm the odd one here; it's quite possible.

There's been a shout-out on Twitter ...

There's been a shout out on Twitter

What does that have to do with the price of fish?

I wouldn’t say Bravissimo is a communal shop either. It’s a shop for women.

It's not. It's a shop that sells women's lingerie. That doesn't mean it's "for women" - the customer can be either male or female.

It's a bit like saying a shop that sells men's watches is only "for men". It's not - it sells men's products. As a woman I can still go in it, though, if I wish to purchase a men's watch.

YANBU. I wouldn’t want men there and I don’t know why any men would want to be hanging around there rather than wandering off to somewhere more interesting and less awkward to them either.

A thoughtful man would be aware that many women would certainly notice of, if not be afraid to be alone with a man at night.

a thoughtful man would be very aware that many MN posters would feel uncomfortable if a man was suddenly walking in their carriage at night.
So what do you suggest they do? Lock themselves in the toilets if there's a woman in the train?

And what about women fearful of being in an empty carriage for exactly that reason?

Where I live men can come in to the women's changing rooms and stand right outside their partner's cubicle. I can't remember if they do this in lingerie shops as well.
I don't like shopping for underwear next to men, but I accept that they have a right to be in the shop.

@Macncheeseballs

I hate buying bras and knickers with men loitering, and I'm a grown arse woman

Yes, like I said, me too, but they have a right to be there. They may be buying for their wives.

Still waiting for the OP to respond to my comments on the store layout.

I've never been to a Bravissimo shop where you can overhear any of the changing room conversations from the communal waiting area. Anyone who doesn't want to discuss bra specifics in the communal area can do so with their fitter when they're in the changing rooms. All you need to say is, 'I'm here for a fitting, can I discuss in there?' and point. The Bravissimo staff are excellent at making sure women feel comfortable.

pleasedonttextmyman and others there is so much that is utterly disingenuous on this thread. Of course the area separated just by a curtain from women and girls trying on and being fitted for bras in a shop which only sells women's underwear is a women's space - its not just "a shop" it's a specific type of shop.

Teenaged girls don't need their dad to be with them in an underwear changing room. They need a bit of privacy.

Preferring privacy when trying on underwear does not equate to being ashamed of buying bras, otherwise we'd be advocating everyone stripping off in the middle of the shop and do away with changing rooms altogether seeing as customers will be seen at the tills with whatever they are buying anyway.

@Gwenhwyfar

Where I live men can come in to the women's changing rooms and stand right outside their partner's cubicle. I can't remember if they do this in lingerie shops as well. I don't like shopping for underwear next to men, but I accept that they have a right to be in the shop.

Some shops are like that, and it can be a bit intrusive, but I've never found Bravissimo to be set up in that way. If you're waiting, you wait on the comfy sofas which are nowhere near the actual cubicles. The reason why they're comfy is because a fitting takes bloody ages, so if you're waiting for someone, you're going to be there a while!