Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

@Scubadivinginabox

YANBU. With a teenage daughter, I would have felt exactly the same. Actually, even without a daughter in tow. Why do men have to be everywhere? Would happily not have them be allowed in lingerie shops, womens' hairdressers and have safe 'women only' spaces, in the same way I have no desire to go to my local barbers or men's underwear shop (if there is such a thing. If so, why not?). Can you also tell I loathe unisex toilets? There are just some spaces that should be women only. I agree with you that this should be one of them.

Would you happy if men only spaces existed

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

feelingmehtoday that was in response to the declaration that its important that we remove embarrassment from everyday activities. Apparently buying tampins in the supermarket is the same as having bra fittings in a specialist shop (of course it isn't remotely as nobody has tampon fittings in a women's hygiene products shop...) which you take no issue with?

Yes exactly - that poster was very clearly referring to everyday activities. Walking down the high street with your boobs or penis out for all to see, is not (at least where I live) an everyday activity. I thought it was a strange and unnecessary extrapolation.

Its depressing that so many Mumsnet posters are falling over themselves to assert that men should be able to hang around in specialist women's underwear shops if they feel like it and teenaged girls and women should get over it if it makes them uncomfortable. It reminds me a lot of the threads on which women are upset about men present 24/7, sleeping overnight and using patients showers and toilets on open plan (curtains not seperate rooms) post natal wards being told to get over it.

I'm not sure why some posters are so invested in shaming teenaged girls and women who want privacy from men in some situations involving undressing and being somewhat vulnerable.

The thread is very long and honestly just irritating now though.

Is it a shop for men?
No
Is it a shop for women and girls?
Yes

Therefore women’s feelings should be taken into consideration. You don’t mind your other half being there - great for you, but most of the other women there don’t want him there!

I think the OP means the waiting sofa outside the lingerie section of a store. I don’t think she means other areas of the store.

It is uncomfortable in that circumstance and I wish they move the husband away from the part of the store.

The TK Maxx staff allow men into the woman’s changing rooms. I asked why some random man was standing in the middle of the room giving his opinion on his companions dresses - they just shrugged.

The have a trans woman who always works in the lingerie dept, so maybe they go by gender so don’t ask...

There are countries where women are seen as inferior, where you have hide pregnancy and periods, where everything female is shameful.

No flipping way should we all the idea that there's anything dishonourable in buying underwear and nightwear and women should hide away from men to do it.

Keep men out of the changing room cubicles, no one disagree.
That is not what the thread is about, even if some posters are trying to derail it.

Pretending a shop is a "safe place", patronising way to describe something inferior where only women should be allowed, and god forbid a man (ie bored husband or father) should see an item of lingerie at the till or carried to the changing room?

FFS, it's 2021.

It's doing no woman any favour to follow the nonsense that came up on this thread.

@KittenKong

The TK Maxx staff allow men into the woman’s changing rooms. I asked why some random man was standing in the middle of the room giving his opinion on his companions dresses - they just shrugged.

The have a trans woman who always works in the lingerie dept, so maybe they go by gender so don’t ask...

They do? That’s good to know. I like to have a second opinion so it’ll be nice to have him close.

Thanks

(It's doing no woman any favour to follow the nonsense that came up on this thread*

Yes men have totally started to behave themselves now. Porn hub has closed down. School girls aren't harassed any more and amazon stopped selling spy cameras .

Time to.enjoy the peace now..

Whatwouldscullydo

I did mention people trying to derail the thread, you are proving my point, thank you.

Wtf has this thread got to do with Pornhub?!

Go to another shop 🤷🏼‍♀️ pick your battles and let it go. If you weren't happy leave, so projecting onto other people. Your issue is about anyone (make or female I'm guessing?!) hearing the size of a bra. Not looking or seeing anything just potentially overhearing a size... eye roll

Allowing males access to changing rooms leads to alot if incidents of videos making their way onto porn sites.

Hence why women do not want males/men anywhere near changing rooms designated for women. And why many women do not even use them in shops where the changing rooms are mixed.

That and the dickeads who post on twitter about trying on women's underwear in store changing rooms . I'm guessing you also missed the hundreds of reviews on the m&s website of wonens underwear, from men/males discussing how there was "plenty of room at the front" that m&s met stavd fir months.

And bow you want to tell women and girls that of a man overhears their bra fit and sees teenage girls taking their items on to try that the men arent interested...

Allowing males access to changing rooms leads to alot if incidents of videos making their way onto porn sites.

They aren't accessing the changing room ffs. They are waiting outside the changing rooms, which have locked doors on them?! This thread has gone way off topic...

But they are right there over hearing everything .

You don't see at all how that might be a bit well awkward for young girls? Believe me even at 10 Many know what men and boys can be like.

Knowing what they know of course they will be wary. And that is entirely on the men and boys.

You seem to blame the girls

@Whatwouldscullydo

But they are right there over hearing everything .

You don't see at all how that might be a bit well awkward for young girls? Believe me even at 10 Many know what men and boys can be like.

Knowing what they know of course they will be wary. And that is entirely on the men and boys.

You seem to blame the girls

Do you enjoy making things up?

Please point out where I "blame the girls"?! Blatant fiction. Read all my posts on this thread properly before you throw out random shit, please.

No they are not "overhearing everything". A few examples on this thread have been given of posters who have used similar stores and felt that the conversations they were having with store staff were discreet enough that no one in an adjacent cubicle - let alone outside the changing area - could have heard.

To start banging on about pornhub on a thread about men essentially sitting in the communal area of a shop, is bloody ridiculous.

Apparently shoe fetishism is a big thing. Maybe we should ban MEN from children and women shoe shops too, to give us a "safe place" to try on footwear?

@pleasedonttextmyman

Apparently shoe fetishism is a big thing. Maybe we should ban MEN from children and women shoe shops too, to give us a "safe place" to try on footwear?

Crazy isn't it... I won't be remotely surprised if some suggests it.

In fact, I'm sure some men also have make up and hair product fetishes. Let's ban them from Boots, too, just in case.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Allowing males access to changing rooms leads to alot if incidents of videos making their way onto porn sites.

Hence why women do not want males/men anywhere near changing rooms designated for women. And why many women do not even use them in shops where the changing rooms are mixed.

That and the dickeads who post on twitter about trying on women's underwear in store changing rooms . I'm guessing you also missed the hundreds of reviews on the m&s website of wonens underwear, from men/males discussing how there was "plenty of room at the front" that m&s met stavd fir months.

And bow you want to tell women and girls that of a man overhears their bra fit and sees teenage girls taking their items on to try that the men arent interested...

Don't be ridiculous they are not in the changing rooms, they're outside!

I don't understand the part you are saying about M&S, or what the problem is.

@Whatwouldscullydo this thread has nothing to do with pornhub, such a massive leap.

Why? Pornhub and it's very wide use is exactly why women and girls would be uncomfortable with men sat that close and able to hear every thing. Someone has already confirmed they know this store and that the set up with the sofa is less than ideal for the very reason the op states.

Its a natural reaction to a problem.every women and girl knows by around age 10 probably earlier.

Its very thoughtless by the store and I can't imagine why on earth anyone thought that it was a good idea.

@Whatwouldscullydo your right it is thoughtless by the store, so why is the anger being addressed to the men. They're not coming in of the street without partners etc, they are sitting on the seating provided and waiting for their partners?

You also need to acknowledge that your comment that they are in the changing room was incorrect, they are sitting on the seating provided for the purpose it is provided. To sit on.

OP should've asked the store why they thought it was appropriate?

That's the point though.

Husbands and fathers aren't exempt from these behaviours that women and girls are wary of. Do you think no husband father etc has ever watched porn or eyed up an underage girl?

Men don't have to live like that the way we do. So no many will not think twice about sitting on a sofa because its not them being upskirted or in receipt of dozens of comments about their breasts on a daily basis at school or having men yell out car windows at them.

Alot of men don't get why we are on high alert alot of the time.

My own parents wouod ge a good example of this..my mum.barely goes anywhere without my dad and he wouod totally be one in that sofa without a thought fir anyone else. I've thrown him out a new look changing room.myself. and before you say anything I was there waiting fir dds no one.else needed to be its not a family event.

A few years ago I would have said it was surprising that a lingerie store would have so little clue about their core market. These days sadly many welcome men and males right on In there to try on underwear next to little girls having a bra fit.

The thoughtlessness just isn't right ajd shows a complete lack.of respect for their customers. So many women are wearing the wrong size bra . I did fir years myself I k ow what it's like. This will be a barrier to many women and girls. Whether the guys sat on the sofa are the sweetest kindest men you will ever meet. Or ones texting their mates that they saw daves from down the roads 15 year old buying a bright red bra...

@Whatwouldscullydo I also wear a bra and I live in the same world you do, I don't understand your equating men waiting for their partners in the designated area to pornhub and up skirting.

Very odd.

If you don't like the shops, shop elsewhere? Many have said that they've found bravissimo to have very discreet fitting rooms. You seem to have missed those comments.

Again OP never said they had access to the changing rooms, so no pornhub videos were being made.

And someone else has said they know the store and that it is an issue.

And not having actual access to the cubicle doesn't mean they can't still enjoy listening and watching if the circumstances permit which with this set up they may well do. There are plenty of people posting about what they see and hear in shops. Tik tok is full of it.