Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

@feelingmehtoday

You should have got your boobs out and whirled them around singing, hey ho I'm a booby baby feeder!

Thanks for this intelligent response. Complete deflection. Because you no doubt realise that men are in fact a part of life and are often (shock horror) in public places. If we don't think of our bodies as sexual objects ourselves, we can remove this weirdness and just get on with our lives.

No, I just thought it was a silly, passive aggressive question and nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The changing rooms should be a women only space without doubt. But this is about the area outside the changing rooms which is a communal area.

@beastlyslumber

If you read passive aggressiveness into my original question then I'm afraid that's on you, as it absolutely was a genuine question.

It does have relevance to the thread - the thread is about the perceived sexualisation of breasts by men and the debate about whether we should have men in public areas or not where women might be discussing and/or removing their breasts from their clothes. This 100/% applies to the act of breastfeeding in public.

I haven't actually been in a Bravissimo. I used to shop in Leia.

Is it similar in that it has closed and locking individual ceiling to floor cubicles, big enough for a person and sales lady, with the cubicles being at a dog leg to the shop, thus out of the direct sight of people waiting in the shop?

[quote feelingmehtoday]@beastlyslumber

If you read passive aggressiveness into my original question then I'm afraid that's on you, as it absolutely was a genuine question.

It does have relevance to the thread - the thread is about the perceived sexualisation of breasts by men and the debate about whether we should have men in public areas or not where women might be discussing and/or removing their breasts from their clothes. This 100/% applies to the act of breastfeeding in public. [/quote]

My point being, where on earth do we draw the line? Would it be fair for example for a woman to ask a man to leave a public area because she feels uncomfortable feeding her baby? I'd argue not.

Agree OP they need to fuck off. So unnecessary

@TSSDNCOP

I haven't actually been in a Bravissimo. I used to shop in Leia.

Is it similar in that it has closed and locking individual ceiling to floor cubicles, big enough for a person and sales lady, with the cubicles being at a dog leg to the shop, thus out of the direct sight of people waiting in the shop?

yes...

(or at least the ones I go to do)
that's what makes the thread so funny.

[quote feelingmehtoday]@beastlyslumber

If you read passive aggressiveness into my original question then I'm afraid that's on you, as it absolutely was a genuine question.

It does have relevance to the thread - the thread is about the perceived sexualisation of breasts by men and the debate about whether we should have men in public areas or not where women might be discussing and/or removing their breasts from their clothes. This 100/% applies to the act of breastfeeding in public. [/quote]
You genuinely wanted to know what advice I would give you about asking men to leave your breastfeeding class?

Okay, well, it depends on whether you were okay with them being there or not. If it made you feel uncomfortable then asking them to leave might have been an option, but it would probably be more practical to find a different breastfeeding class without men attending.

My point being, where on earth do we draw the line? Would it be fair for example for a woman to ask a man to leave a public area because she feels uncomfortable feeding her baby? I'd argue not.

Personally I draw the line at teenage girls being able to have a bra fitting without a nearby audience of unrelated males.

As far as breastfeeding goes, if you are going to breastfeed in a public area, it's likely men and women will see you so presumably you're okay with that. If you go to a private area to feed your baby specifically so that men you don't know don't see you, and they follow you in, or sit on the other side of the curtain from you while you feed your baby, that would be a bit more similar to the situation we are discussing on the thread.

@beastlyslumber

It wasn't a breastfeeding class, it was a baby sensory group where dads also take their babies as well as mums. My baby needed feeding whilst I was there. My point being that neither I nor the man present had any more rights to that space - it was a space shared by both sexes and rightly so. Who do you feel had more right to the space within that baby group, me or the other parent who just so happens to be male? If we are going to start saying that men shouldn't be in communal areas of shops lest women feel uncomfortable, where on earth do we draw that line?

Anyway I don't wish to further derail OP's thread! I'm just curious as to where we draw the line with what are effectively public spaces.

Personally I draw the line at teenage girls being able to have a bra fitting without a nearby audience of unrelated males.

The word "audience" is a bit silly - I don't think OP's daughter was being watched as she tried on bras.

[quote feelingmehtoday]@beastlyslumber

It wasn't a breastfeeding class, it was a baby sensory group where dads also take their babies as well as mums. My baby needed feeding whilst I was there. My point being that neither I nor the man present had any more rights to that space - it was a space shared by both sexes and rightly so. Who do you feel had more right to the space within that baby group, me or the other parent who just so happens to be male? If we are going to start saying that men shouldn't be in communal areas of shops lest women feel uncomfortable, where on earth do we draw that line? [/quote]
I don't think either parent had 'more right' to be in the baby sensory group. I don't see what it's got to do with the thread. The two situations are very different.

If we are going to start saying that men shouldn't be in communal areas of shops lest women feel uncomfortable, where on earth do we draw that line?

I'm not going to start saying that. I'm saying that men shouldn't be loitering outside the bra-fitting rooms in bra shops. I'm happy to draw the line there. I don't see why you think the line has to move to encompass all other mixed sex situations.

@feelingmehtoday

Personally I draw the line at teenage girls being able to have a bra fitting without a nearby audience of unrelated males.

The word "audience" is a bit silly - I don't think OP's daughter was being watched as she tried on bras.

Audience doesn't just mean watching. Audience - audio.

I get what you mean OP, I was walking to pay for a all in one bra/knickers set / babydoll and a couple of men just stared at it and then me. And this was on the shop floor away from the changing rooms! I can imagine it would be worse in the changing room.

@beastlyslumber

To me "audience" implies a deliberate and conscious effort by the "watcher" or "listener" to take in what is happening around them. Why do you (or anyone in fact) assume the men sitting outside the changing area were doing this, as opposed to just idly waiting? I might be sitting close enough to another family in a restaurant so that I might hear snippets of their conversation - I wouldn't necessarily be consciously trying to hear it, though. I just think some of the terminology used is a little silly here. Terms such as "loitering" and "audience". I believe that if we choose to think of the situation in that way, we (as opposed to the men) make it awkward for ourselves.

@iloveruby

Couldn't the sofas be somewhere else in the shop (if they are actually necessary)?

And for those who require support from husband / father etc - clearly that is a different scenario than a group of men waiting near the changing room?

Stop being so sensible! Either we have to completely ban men from public spaces that might contain women in case they are perverts, or drag them everywhere with us because woman can't possibly purchase a pair of knickers without her husband's support and approval.

[quote feelingmehtoday]@beastlyslumber

To me "audience" implies a deliberate and conscious effort by the "watcher" or "listener" to take in what is happening around them. Why do you (or anyone in fact) assume the men sitting outside the changing area were doing this, as opposed to just idly waiting? I might be sitting close enough to another family in a restaurant so that I might hear snippets of their conversation - I wouldn't necessarily be consciously trying to hear it, though. I just think some of the terminology used is a little silly here. Terms such as "loitering" and "audience". I believe that if we choose to think of the situation in that way, we (as opposed to the men) make it awkward for ourselves. [/quote]
I am not implying those meanings. You are inferring them. You can't blame me for that.

It's true, however, that I have no idea whether they are idly waiting or whether they are there because they are pervs trying to catch a glimpse or getting off on hearing girls discuss bra sizes.

That's the whole entire point.

If they are idly waiting, they can do that where their waiting won't be misinterpreted as perving and won't be making women/girls feeling uncomfortable.

If they are pervs, they can fuck off.

The vast, vast majority of men have no problem understanding this.

IMO I’m sure nearly all the blokes would be happier anywhere else than sitting in a bra shop.

And that’s speaking as a man that use to sell lingerie on a market.

Stop being so sensible! Either we have to completely ban men from public spaces that might contain women in case they are perverts, or drag them everywhere with us because woman can't possibly purchase a pair of knickers without her husband's support and approval.

OR - as many posters on this thread have argued - we could have a middle ground where the reasonable expectation is that men won't be in spaces that are specifically designed for bra fitting and ladies' lingerie trying-on because their presence in this specific space understandably makes teenage girls and many adult woman uncomfortable.

It's interesting to me that this argument has been twisted to 'you're saying men shouldn't go shopping' or 'you're saying we should give up equality!' I haven't seen anyone on this thread arguing for these positions.

we could have a middle ground where the reasonable expectation is that men won't be in spaces that are specifically designed for bra fitting and ladies' lingerie trying-on because their presence in this specific space understandably makes teenage girls and many adult woman uncomfortable.

you would have thought that the area OUTSIDE of the changing rooms was that middle ground...

I am puzzled of what posters do in changing areas now.
I am locked up in my cubicle and change my things, possibly asking for various sizes.

Sounds like other posters are doing a full naked French CanCan in the middle aisle.

I was actually in Bravissimo this morning, my DH went for a coffee as he would rather the ground swallowed him up than sit on a sofa in the shop. "It's not a place for me, I don't need to be there" were his exact words. I was in there for an hour in total so he completely made the right decision.

I'm never creeped out by men who do sit and wait. I find it a bit amusing, as they always look bored and slightly uncomfortable. Why put yourself through that?! I tend to assume they have been told to wait by their other half rather than making an independent decision to sit there.

It would annoy me if men/children were taking up the seats intended for queuing women. Reminds me of having to visit the antenatal ward for growth scans and I couldn't get a seat because they were taken up by peoples partners/extended family/bags. Its just rude and common courtesy in all scenarios that you should give up your seat for the people actually using the service.

My DH would regard a lingerie shop as women’s space.

He wouldn’t want to go in, he wouldn’t want to be disrespectful.

He is a normal man.

The vast, vast majority of men have no problem understanding this.

The vast, vast majority of men wouldn't even think of this. I know for a fact my OH wouldn't expect to be misconstrued as a pervert for sitting on a sofa outside a changing room. If it was brought to his attention and he was asked to move, he would of course do so and probably feel embarrassed that this was thought of him. My genuine feeling is that many men don't realise that women might feel uncomfortable simply by their presence in a shop and definitely don't intend to make women feel this way.

Sounds like other posters are doing a full naked French CanCan in the middle aisle.