To wonder why MN is so unpleasant about SAHMs?

[crinklyfoil]

While I know there are cases when women aren’t married and don’t own property and are in a vulnerable position, I’m not talking about posters who are concerned about women.

I’m talking about posters who believe that SAHMs have no say in finances, should ‘get a job’ and are somehow lazy.

A FT childcare place costs around £800 a month. If you have more than one child, realistically for many women, ‘getting a job’ will mean working at a loss. Not to mention problems with shift work at the lower paid end of the spectrum (retail work and care work.)

Is it really so awful that having a SAHM might just work really well for some families? That some women might thoroughly enjoy it and that it’s part of a mutually beneficial relationship in the context of the whole family?

Or should everyone just get a job, regardless of how miserable and poor it makes the whole family?!

@Ghosttile

I think the ‘poor role model’ stuff is bollocks. DC seeing their mother treated with respect is important. Seeing their mother happy with the life they’re living is important. That might be as a SAHM, a full time working mother or anything in between.

The issue is not that SAHM are poor role models but facilitating men in not doing their share of domestic work and childcare is. Grown men do not need " mothering" .

Over mothering and under fathering is behind the entitlement of men , toxic masculinity and the abuse of women and children.

People can never grasp that childcare costs vary depending on several factors. Here there are a load of nurseries and most are undersubscribed so they are competitively priced, there are also a fair few childminders and either option is below £1k for one child a month, but know that this isn't the case everywhere. £800 isn't impossible, but neither is it necessarily the norm.

I've seen some of those threads with harsh judgements for SAHM. I've also seen some threads where WOHMs are told they don't actually raise their kids, asked why they had kids if they were going to work, and so on. Both have a mix of people agree and people telling assholes to fuck off.

I've seen some with partners who gets really pissed off at the mother not working, and ones where they get angry the working mother doesn't fit what the partner wants.

I've been WOH, SAH, WAH - all had their judgements. All have their benefits and risks. Being financial reliant on another person is more risky in many ways - SAH are most likely to be in that boat but any of them can be - and there are many threads where that risk 'because he earns more' has come back to bite, hard, which makes people wary.

My spouse has been all of those too - he's dealt with some judgemental arsey comments too though they've been of a very different flavour and often have a backhanded remark about me in them. It's weird how it's still somehow my fault one way or the other to some people.

We're judged whatever we do. People can focus their efforts on one side if an issue, but that rarely gives a clear picture.

[quote Snookie00]@Flossing. Good point about why comment if I don’t care. Thinking about it, it’s because I find it so “first world problem”, whiny and woe is me. Constantly looking for validation from strangers for their choices to SAH. If they were comfortable with their choice then they wouldn’t need to. Grown ups should be able to make conscious, thoughtful choices about their own life, kids, finances without seeking approval from unknowns. Saying a that, over half the threads on mumsnet are from women getting that kind of validation so perhaps it’s par for the course here.[/quote]
This is true. There are billions of women and girls across the world whose true potential goes unfulfilled because they do not have opportunities to to step out into the world and do other stuff beyond raising children. (And yes true potential is more than raising children. Raising children is biological function, all species are hard wired to do it). It feels like in western societies, women who have chosen not to take advantage of hard won freedoms of financial independence are somehow looking for validation.

@vivainsomnia

I don't have an issue at all with SAHM even though this a choice I would never have made for myself or would want for my daugther.

What I have an issue with is SAHM who play the martyrs, who pretend they sacrificed their career for the sole purpose of allowing their husband to have their career, who claim that without them at home, their husband could never earn what they do, and who slave away all day long just to make the family happy.

I just don't believe it. I believe that the vast majority of SAHM are so because they want to be. Yes it might work out best for the family and that's great, but I think women who spent years to build up their career and care to continue on that path always manage to find ways to do so.

How many women do you know like this - and why do you chose to spend time with them? Having an "issue" over things that don't concern you is a bit daft - maybe you need to focus on running your own life.

.”So I don’t think you can state that “MN is so unpleasant to SAHM” without accepting that it is entirely your perception based on the tuning of your own radar.”

True, but why does everything thread with “SAHM” in the title full up so quickly and provoke such strong responses from people who have never been a SAHM and claim they would never want to be?

Look at this thread . Look at the other insane thread about the DH funding the IVF. If that woman in that thread wasn’t SAH, it would have been a totally different thread.

Wanting to be a SAHM is a valid choice. Own it!
This exactly.

Ultimately, there are so many different circumstances. There are men who go to work because they genuinely love their job and would find being at home with kids boring and unfulfilling. They are more than happy for their wife to be a SAHM because they gain from it too, especially when they earn well.

Similarly, you have men who go to bed every night dreading going to work the next day, who would love to be the one staying at home, but know this is not an option because they earn 4 times when their wife would.

You have those who agreed before having a first child that mum would be a SAHM from the first and either always be so or that they'd go back to work when they are all in secondary school.

You have those who agree that they'd have two children and the wife would go back to work when the youngest start school but then the wife wants a 3rd child and continue to be at home for many more years.

Each case is different and there really is no right or wrong when both wife and husband are truly happy with their own circumstances. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.

I agree completely @honeylulu, it really annoys me when people won't just own being a SAHM.

I've a friend who openly says she wanted to give up work so she can play tennis in the afternoons and I find it so refreshing! She doesn't like her old job and they can afford for her not to work so why pretend she's taking one for the team/family?!

[quote DanniDuck]@crinklyfoil Working mums will make excuses about how THEY wouldn't wanna be kept by a man and all that shit. But the fact is, they'd give their right arm, to have a man who is a high earner, so they are be able to stay at home with their children. You can tell by the bitterness and vitriol in their bile filled posts.[/quote]
You really seem to have a low opinion of womankind, thinking that all they want to do it be kept by a man.

My hypothesis is that some women feel that SAHMs are letting the side down. We are told that we can have it all but some aren't even trying etc etc for some it may just be jealousy; I do suspect lots of mums SAH out of necessity rather than being so financially comfortable they don't need to 'bother' with a career.

FWIW I don't believe in this, I don't give a shiny shit if that's what a family unit have decided works best for them.

However, I do think the prevalence of SAHMs perpetuates women's gender role in society and means that women will continue to earn less than men and be lumbered with the majority of child and house care. This is the fault of the patriarchy rather than women though.

I’m not sure I have read the threads you have read as this doesn’t reflect what I have seen on MN. However if this topic is coming up then it is likely that
1.there is an issue with the ‘partnership’ and being a SAHP is a contributing factor

1. That there are concerns over the lack of independence the person has - I.e they have been SAHP for years and are now concerned they can’t get back into the workforce
2. There is actual abuse and the person is trapped because they have no financial independence.

The fact is that people posting problems as above for advice often need to get some financial independence, and the obvious answer is to get a job. You are extrapolating a general consensus from specific advice given to a situation. I think being a SAHP has many advantages but it also requires a family finances set up and total honesty and trust. Even then I don’t think I could give up financial independence due to how horribly wrong it can go but I know it works for some people and that is great for them.

How many women do you know like this - and why do you chose to spend time with them? Having an "issue" over things that don't concern you is a bit daft - maybe you need to focus on running your own life
Why the need for such an aggressive and defensive response to what was just an observation and point of view?

Don't worry, it doesn't stop me running my own life, and none of my SAHM good friends act this, on the opposite, they all say how lucky they are to be SAHM. Most did go back to work at some point though. I don't have one friend who is still at home with teenage children.

I don’t think there is any problem with SAHP. Personally, I think the issue is where the SAHP comes on here, moans that their working partner comes home and doesn’t immediately take over with all child related duties ‘to give them a break’ and everyone piles on to the working partner because ‘they have had it easy all day’, ‘your ‘job’ is so much harder than theirs’ etc. Never heard such a load of rot and that’s from someone who worked way over full time hours AND was a SAHP for several years when kids were small. Both myself and DH worked full time and between us also managed the kids full time, managed by working double shifts opposite days, doing night shifts and walking in the door and tagging the person leaving for day shift etc. We had no family nearby, no one to help with the kids, got no outside help, was all us. Only exception was a period where we got allocated a 1:1 worker for a baby with intensive medical needs (was seemingly cheaper than them taking up a hosp bed), but that worker was only allowed to be with and care for that particular baby, none of the other kids and was 6hrs/day 5 days for roughly 12mths. No way, no how was looking after babies/small kids/primary age anywhere near as hard as going to work. That’s laughable, and we had 2 x significant SN where both needed a hell of a lot more work/attention than the average child. Looking after kids, cleaning the house, getting shopping is not ‘work’ either, it’s not a job, it’s just parenting/necessary living skills. I’m all for SAHP if that’s how people want to run it for their family, who gives a hoot, just don’t make out it’s a job, let alone a hard job.

[quote DanniDuck]@crinklyfoil

I’m not new but I have noticed it a lot lately. I do think in general the site seems more hostile lately.

This. ^[/quote]
It’s always been the same. You just notice things more depending on your own circumstances.

5 years ago the breastfeeding/bottle feeding debate got to me. Now my children are beyond that age I couldn’t give a toss

Just sheer envy, I think. I can't think what else would drive a person to give a damn about how another person spends their day.

As for “owning being a SAHM as a valid choice” - I do own it! Why wouldn’t I ? It’s not something I feel the need to shout from the rooftops about, but I know myself and know what motivates me in life. I respect my husband greatly for the fact we can facilitate each other - I wouldn’t have it any other way. If I could do it all again I would. Best years of my life!

But that’s not to say, I don’t respect women who work or families who organise themselves differently. I literally have no view on anyone else, working or otherwise. I don’t expect anyone to take a view on me, so it always surprises me that some women are so vitriolic about SAHMs on MN. In real life, nobody has passed comment once in 16 years. Not once. I live in an area where most women SAH tbh. It never struck me as remotely unusual or as anything to even comment on, let alone justify - until I discovered AIBU

But the fact is, they'd give their right arm, to have a man who is a high earner, so they are be able to stay at home with their children

Ewwwww! No thanks! I'm more than happy being the higher earner. For one thing I expect my husband to take on half the child and household duties (and he does). Traditional woman's role is not for me. I would hate playing second fiddle in the "career orchestra" but then I am a tad competitive haha. Fine for those who choose otherwise though. No two families are the same.

@SilverGlassHare

I don’t think I’ve ever been horrible to any SAHMs on here, but I do internally roll my eyes a bit when the ones who have all their NT children in full-time schooling try to make out that ‘life admin’ and laundry and cleaning fill the whole time their children are out of the house. Working parents also manage to do all those things AND work. I’d actually find it refreshing to hear a SAHM of school aged kids say, yes it’s lovely, I spend an hour each day tidying/cooking/cleaning then relax the rest of the time.

Yes! They always say ‘paying bills’ too. I haven’t ‘paid a bill’ for years, even the milk and windows are on DD.

As the child of a SAHM (I was born late 1970s) my perspective is maybe slightly skewed. Everyone always says “DC remember time spent, not money”. For me this just wasn’t true. I spend like water now as when I was growing up all we (me and sibling) were told was “we can’t afford it”, “You don’t NEED Nike trainers”, “This holiday (usually south coast) is much nicer than sitting round a pool in Spain”. When you’re a child you just want to be like everyone else. I hated that I couldn’t have nice clothes/go abroad/have day trips at weekends.

We didn’t do a lot of trips to places either, as we couldn’t afford it (my DF was on an OK wage but not great). He was made redundant when I was 11/12 and the only reason we could keep the house was my DGF had died and my DM was the sole beneficiary as she is an only child.

I suppose it’s different if one person in the couple is a high earner and can afford all the extras anyway, but as a kid it’s crap otherwise. Most of my school friends had SAHMs but they pretty much all had high-earning DHs.I do still hold some resentment to my parents for it but my DH tries to encourage me to let go. He spoils me as he had a similar upbringing but was a high earner before he retired.

In my more rational moments I can see it wasn’t easy for my parents; childcare options weren’t as plentiful (only 1 nursery and they would only admit you if you were going to the associated Catholic school), only 1 GP each side and both were disabled, no other relatives to help (both DPs were only children). I really don’t think they considered the impact on us though and we really didn’t get on as a family through my teen years as I hated never having the stuff/holidays/treats that my peers did.

Every couple/family has to figure out what works best for them, and there are a lot of factors.

It's irritating that SAHM is normalised and SAHD generally gets a bit of Why wouldn't dad potentially be just as good (or bad) a SAHP? Or take turns?

I haven't seen it on MN, but elsewhere on line you do get SAHMs chiding other mums for not SAH or insisting it's the ideal and every woman wants to do it, which is grim.

It's mostly a case of "A woman's place is in the wrong".

SAHMs are judged for being leeches, lazy, setting a bad example, etc.

WOHMs are judged for farming out their children and putting themselves first.

Women aren't allowed to be right.

The reality is that some people have the freedom to make the choice to work or be a SAHP (I'm in the latter group), and some people don't have the choice due to their circumstances.

When DH and I were first married we both had boring office jobs neither of us enjoyed. I didn't care because I wanted to be a SAHM when we had children. DH worked out what he wanted to do, and I supported him through university while he got his second degree, which was more vocational than his first.

Now I SAH with our children while he works in his good career that he loves.

My children are school-aged now, and because I am at home we've been able to make the decision to home educate them, which works for my DCs.

My DCs, all of whom are girls, know that they can be what they want when they grow up, be that a SAHM or someone who works outside the home, whether or not they have children themselves. At this time my eldest doesn't know what she wants to do, my middle wants to be an astronomer, and my youngest is into fashion. They're still little, this will change.

The most important things parents can do for their children (apart from love them), whether they have a job or not, is help them find a path that makes them happy. Giving them choices through opportunities as much as they can.

We pay roughly 560 pounds per month for childminder for a full time place. Normally would be 706 pounds, but we get a 20 % government discount.

Childcare isn't always 1000 pounds and over, this vastly varies where you are based in the country.

We're in Birmingham.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

No issue with whether a woman works or doesn’t but two things that piss me off:

1- “my partner works because he earns more”....always men who earn more

2- childcare will take all my wage- nope it’s a joint expense

Just say, I want to be a SAHM, that’s the truth and that’s ok.

Two things that piss me off:

1 - when people tell me childcare is a joint expense they miss the point that the household income is pooled, so cancelling out an entire wage impacts the household jointly.

2 - people telling me that really I just want to be a SAHM and can't possibly fathom that both parents working in some circumstances just isn't financially viable. (I don't want to be a SAHM but needs must for another year and half. Thankfully my husband did 2 years as the SAHP and then we switched so we both took the hit because it cost us - jointly! - to have both of us working).

@FourTeaFallOut

Just sheer envy, I think. I can't think what else would drive a person to give a damn about how another person spends their day.

How does that explain why nastiness goes the other way too, are SAHMs generally jealous of those who have their own careers? No. But comments about envy or whatever are what gets these threads heated.

Can we have a quota on threads like this?

Mumsnet is not nasty to SAHMs. Mumsnet is not nasty to WOHMs.