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To filibuster or not to filibuster? Biden needs to get a move on before Doofus Duck waddles back into the swamp (Biden-Trump Thread #128)

978 replies

TheNorthWestPawsage · 24/07/2021 17:17

Still waiting for the kraken to appear.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 22/08/2021 10:33

@borntobequiet

Love to you, Across.

On a frivolous note, I’ve sometimes pondered if Julian of Norwich would have been taken seriously if she had been Julie-Ann of Norwich.

I'm not sure most people did until 1900 or so, which was when her work was first widely known because it was translated from a manuscript in the British Museum and published in English.

Nobody knows what her name was before she took the name of Julian as a religious, so it might have been anything; what's for certain is she wouldn't have been taken seriously if she hadn't been a anchoress.

lionheart · 22/08/2021 10:35

Strength to you both Across.

Hello TheClaws. Sometimes a break is absolutely essential.

I love that quotation.

Doodlebug71 · 22/08/2021 11:01

[quote PerkingFaintly]Fairly detailed account of US activity of the last few days.

‘This is Actually Happening’
Inside the Biden team's five-day scramble as Afghanistan collapsed.
www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/20/biden-afghanistan-kabul-chaos-taliban-evacuation-505600[/quote]
I've just been reading through that. It's an interesting account, but does conflict with other accounts available. Including the part where US troops left Baghran airport without notifying the Afghan command.

www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20210706-us-troops-quietly-left-bagram-air-base-without-notifying-afghan-commander

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57682290

TheNorthWestPawsage · 22/08/2021 14:24

Been taking a break also. World events colliding with family events but all safe now.

Wonderful to see the return of several 'old' posters on these threads!

Un-Mumsnetty hugs to you all. Flowers

OP posts:
EchoNan · 22/08/2021 15:07

I was watching Tony Blair speak earlier. I wondered when he would pop up.
www.businessinsider.com/bidens-afghanistan-withdrawal-imbecilic-former-uk-pm-blair-2021-8?r=US&IR=T

PerkingFaintly · 22/08/2021 18:26

I'm going straight for the hard stuff.

Gin all round for the welcome gathering.Smile

PerkingFaintly · 22/08/2021 18:40

I was going to try to express my thoughts about Blair's part in all this.

But I'll stop at "Yeuch".

EchoNan · 22/08/2021 19:13

I think that's a fair summary Perking.

For returning contributors. Flowers from a fan.Smile

TheNorthWestPawsage · 22/08/2021 21:05

Hmm, that assumes they had minds to lose in the first place.

Trump Rally-Goers Lose Their Minds When Rep. Mo Brooks Tells Them to Move Past 2020 Election.
“Folks, put that behind you, put that behind you,” the Republican congressman said as the crowd immediately broke into boos and chants of “no!”
www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-rally-boo-mo-brooks-2020-election-1215419/

OP posts:
lionheart · 22/08/2021 21:13

I thought TB would be keeping his head down.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 22/08/2021 21:46

@lionheart

I thought TB would be keeping his head down.
If he won't, I do wish the BBC would deny him the oxygen of publicity so that I don't have to hear his ghastly gob spouting garbled gibberish first thing in the morning.
lionheart · 22/08/2021 22:09

www.rawstory.com/trump-superspreader/

'Appearing on MSNBC with host Alex Witt on Sunday afternoon, Mary Trump the niece of former president Donald Trump expressed dismay at her uncle holding a rally in COVID-ravaged Alabama on Saturday night and suggested the Republican leadership and aides to her uncle will be just as culpable as him if it turns out to have been a superspreader event.'

Lweji · 23/08/2021 00:22

Booed over vaccine.
It's ok to shoot people, but not to get a shot. HmmGrin

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/22/donald-trump-rally-alabama-covid-vaccine

FrankieStein402 · 23/08/2021 08:34

Blair and the British government made a mistake in following Bush. That does not mean everything he says is a mistake. I get the hatred is founded in disappointment but hatred is never OK.

IMHO his comments over the last few years have made more sense than anything the Tories and even Labour have said.

The vilification of Blair is why we have Pfeffel - because Blair put the Iraq invasion to parliament is why Cameron could not go into Syria and why no British PM will ever again be able to commit troops without a vote.

PerkingFaintly · 23/08/2021 10:18

Are you talking about Blair, FrankieStein, when you try to tell us what we're feeling and why?Hmm

If you are, then I'll say more.

The reason Cameron couldn't go into Syria was the same reason the US limited its involvement: because both countries had entirely spent their credibility and international political capital on the mess that was the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

The US's figleaf of the Iraq invasion being about Al-Qaeda was visibly untrue; the UK figleaf of WMD was quickly shown to have been misrepresented: so the pretence that the invasion was about anything other than US imperialism was seen through.

Then, the US fucked up the occupation in more ways than I have the energy to list here by having no strategy beyond removing Saddam Hussein. I remember all too well things like the US rejection of the Iraqi army (much of which was friendly to the US invasion, initially believing the US rhetoric that it was a liberation), the de-Ba'athification which meant sacking many of the people running civil organisations (because under Saddam people couldn't get promoted in these without token party membership) thus seriously degrading civil society and the rule of law. These and many more things where you don't have to be wise after the event: it was obvious at the time they would create terrible consequences. The US prison camps basically became universities for extremism – they contained talented, experienced men many of whom would initially have been willing to work with the US occupiers but had been given no place to stand and no future. Just as the first post-apartheid government of South Africa was hatched in the university of Robben Island; so the rather different organisation of Daesh was nurtured in US prisons in Iraq.

So by the time of the Syrian civil war, we had no ability to present any intervention as being for the benefit of the invaded country, rather than just another Western imperial adventure. Intervention risked lending credibility to the Islamists' narrative of Islamism being a righteous liberation movement against the imperialist invaders, and acting as a recruiting factor.

Specifically regarding Afghanistan: in the early 2000s, the US & UK diverted resources from the early years of the Afghanistan operation to invade and occupy Iraq; and we did so out of choice, not necessity. The occupation of Afghanistan might always have ended like this – but that lack of resources in the early years made it vastly more likely.

Blair made a highly avoidable mistake by going in with Bush, but the real problem came afterwards because he could never, ever admit that he'd been wrong. So we were trapped in his fantasy world, still acting as though his imaginary universe were true instead of adjusting to the new reality and dealing with it. The UK couldn't change tack on Iraq until Blair departed as PM, and for domestic reasons he was in for so long it was way too late. I can't put my mind on the detailed things I thought at the time the UK could have done to mitigate, because my memory is patchy. But I clearly remember knowing them at the time, and being frustrated that Blair couldn't bring himself even to engage.

If Tony Blair had stuck his head up right now to witter about climate change, I wouldn't much care. On Brexit I think he would actually have done a far better job steering us from the referendum-result to the post-EU future than May and Johnson.

But that's not what he's chuntering about now. He is back gracing us with his opinion on a subject where he was wrong in the first place; then failed to face the fact that he was wrong. I've seen nothing over subsequent years to suggest he's not still in that mental place, and that his further witterings won't be just as rooted in those fantasies and his need to deny his misjudgement.

So excuse me if I don't pay the blindest bit of notice to anything he says.

(NB I'm relying on my memory for much of the above, so am sure there will be details on which I can be corrected.)

PerkingFaintly · 23/08/2021 10:37

(I've been trying to keep in view my earlier "manifesto" – although that's a personal thing and others may not feel the same.

My personal manifesto was that my reason for participating in these threads was to discuss helping to rebuild and maintain healthy, liberal democracies, in a world where authoritarianism of all kinds is on the rise.

I wavered over whether to post in detail about Blair, but on balance I do think it has some relevance. Good to think about how we got here, and definitely good to grapple with the fact that democracy isn't a way to produce perfect leaders or perfect states.

I'm with Churchill when he said, "Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.")

lionheart · 23/08/2021 10:39

The window is rapidly closing.

BBC Breaking News
@BBCBreaking

'The Taliban will not extend the 31 August deadline for the current evacuation mission from Afghanistan, a spokesman says.'

lionheart · 23/08/2021 10:42

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/23/uk-taliban-extend-kabul-exit-date-deadline-western-troops-forces-americans-britain-kabul

'The UK is preparing to appeal to the Taliban to extend the 31 August deadline for western forces to leave Kabul, while accepting it will not be able to airlift everyone eligible to leave Afghanistan.

The armed forces minister, James Heappey, confirmed the UK would try to persuade the Americans to stay longer in Kabul at a G7 meeting on Tuesday. Speaking to Sky News he also said the UK was prepared to urge the Taliban to agree to extend the deadline, regardless of the US decision.'

PerkingFaintly · 23/08/2021 10:51

lionheart Flowers for continuing to keep an eye on the gerrymandering and voter-suppression in the US, even while it's a "good month to bury bad news".

I've been posting less recently (real life stuff), but still appreciating you all.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 23/08/2021 11:06

@PerkingFaintly

Are you talking about Blair, FrankieStein, when you try to tell us what we're feeling and why?Hmm

If you are, then I'll say more.

The reason Cameron couldn't go into Syria was the same reason the US limited its involvement: because both countries had entirely spent their credibility and international political capital on the mess that was the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

The US's figleaf of the Iraq invasion being about Al-Qaeda was visibly untrue; the UK figleaf of WMD was quickly shown to have been misrepresented: so the pretence that the invasion was about anything other than US imperialism was seen through.

Then, the US fucked up the occupation in more ways than I have the energy to list here by having no strategy beyond removing Saddam Hussein. I remember all too well things like the US rejection of the Iraqi army (much of which was friendly to the US invasion, initially believing the US rhetoric that it was a liberation), the de-Ba'athification which meant sacking many of the people running civil organisations (because under Saddam people couldn't get promoted in these without token party membership) thus seriously degrading civil society and the rule of law. These and many more things where you don't have to be wise after the event: it was obvious at the time they would create terrible consequences. The US prison camps basically became universities for extremism – they contained talented, experienced men many of whom would initially have been willing to work with the US occupiers but had been given no place to stand and no future. Just as the first post-apartheid government of South Africa was hatched in the university of Robben Island; so the rather different organisation of Daesh was nurtured in US prisons in Iraq.

So by the time of the Syrian civil war, we had no ability to present any intervention as being for the benefit of the invaded country, rather than just another Western imperial adventure. Intervention risked lending credibility to the Islamists' narrative of Islamism being a righteous liberation movement against the imperialist invaders, and acting as a recruiting factor.

Specifically regarding Afghanistan: in the early 2000s, the US & UK diverted resources from the early years of the Afghanistan operation to invade and occupy Iraq; and we did so out of choice, not necessity. The occupation of Afghanistan might always have ended like this – but that lack of resources in the early years made it vastly more likely.

Blair made a highly avoidable mistake by going in with Bush, but the real problem came afterwards because he could never, ever admit that he'd been wrong. So we were trapped in his fantasy world, still acting as though his imaginary universe were true instead of adjusting to the new reality and dealing with it. The UK couldn't change tack on Iraq until Blair departed as PM, and for domestic reasons he was in for so long it was way too late. I can't put my mind on the detailed things I thought at the time the UK could have done to mitigate, because my memory is patchy. But I clearly remember knowing them at the time, and being frustrated that Blair couldn't bring himself even to engage.

If Tony Blair had stuck his head up right now to witter about climate change, I wouldn't much care. On Brexit I think he would actually have done a far better job steering us from the referendum-result to the post-EU future than May and Johnson.

But that's not what he's chuntering about now. He is back gracing us with his opinion on a subject where he was wrong in the first place; then failed to face the fact that he was wrong. I've seen nothing over subsequent years to suggest he's not still in that mental place, and that his further witterings won't be just as rooted in those fantasies and his need to deny his misjudgement.

So excuse me if I don't pay the blindest bit of notice to anything he says.

(NB I'm relying on my memory for much of the above, so am sure there will be details on which I can be corrected.)

Thank you, Perking; my visceral objection to people who smile for no reason other than in order to show off their white, white teeth was amply borne out by Blair's later behaviour. What was really sad was the terrible disillusionment of the people who had been so happy when he was first elected to be Prime Minister; it felt at the time as if they really thought he wasn't just another politician.
FrankieStein402 · 23/08/2021 11:27

The credibility argument is true but it was this vote: www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/29/cameron-british-attack-syria-mps that moved the focus to credibility.

So excuse me if I don't pay the blindest bit of notice to anything he says.

You need to aim at the message not the messenger. I personally can't argue with the sentiment that it was politically imbecilic to tie the withdrawal timetable to a slogan.

lionheart · 23/08/2021 13:46

Thank you Perking. Smile