NHS Pay award

[Thedogscollar]

So this is what they have come back with from the insulting 1% offer by increasing it to a paltry 3%.
Workers are leaving in their droves we have a massive deficit in nursing and midwifery which is worsening daily.

I work in the South East of England, we are hugely affected with shortages in staffing, virtually every 12.5 hrs shift I do we cannot have a break due to work acuity and lack of staff. We have junior staff in tears with the pressure put upon them.
We aren't paid for our break and we are hard pushed to get it back as time owing. We cover empty shifts on the bank over and above our contracted hours as we know how hard it is for our colleagues in there.
We are all reaching breaking point some are there now and gone off sick. It is exhausting physically but more so mentally as you know before you even get to work what it's going to be like.

I have payslips going back 10 plus years and in that time my salary has barely changed and I am at the top of my band.

Our management team held an urgent meeting the other day to discuss the crisis going on within our trust with staffing and work acuity. Nothing was really dealt with just more management speak.

This government has to look after the NHS staff that have given so much and still are. Staff retention is in crisis and by offering this paltry pay rise they are doing nothing to stop this disaster becoming a momentous catastrophe resulting in even worsening patient safety levels being eroded even more.

How on earth can this government justify 30 plus billions for track n trace and HSS yet not offer a decent pay rise to NHS workers and in that I include care workers too.

Boris and co should hang their heads in shame but as per they think they are doing so well in offering us anything.

I'm sure I will have people coming on now to say they have lost jobs and taken paycuts and for that I am truly sorry but this cannot be used as an arguement for a huge group of essential workers being financially and emotionally abused by their employer which is exactly what this government are doing.

I’ve just looked at what NHS salaries are now, and honestly they seem good to me? They’re certainly more than most people earn where I live (clue: not in London or SE). But then the average salary in U.K. is around £29k, so once you hit 4 years at Band 5 you’re over that.

I’ve worked in scientific fields for years, and the starting salary for most new grads is around £21k; then seniors earn around £27-£28k. Band 5 equivalents top out at around £25k, regardless of how many years experience they have. This is in an industry where roles & responsibilities are comparable.

Maybe one of the issues with attracting people into nursing etc is the constant narrative that the pay & conditions are terrible? It’s repeated that often that I’m sure many people are put off before they look any further.

@Thriwit scientific field requires hard physical work on top of clinical?

Of course it can. Depending on the role it can require full PPE, extremes of temperature, lots of manual handling, being on your feet all day, etc etc. Alongside working complicated specialist equipment, handling hazardous substances, carrying out very fine-detail, dexterous work, doing a lot of maths, abiding by very stringent regulations, and potentially having thousands of people’s lives in your hands.

@Thriwit

I’ve just looked at what NHS salaries are now, and honestly they seem good to me? They’re certainly more than most people earn where I live (clue: not in London or SE). But then the average salary in U.K. is around £29k, so once you hit 4 years at Band 5 you’re over that.

I’ve worked in scientific fields for years, and the starting salary for most new grads is around £21k; then seniors earn around £27-£28k. Band 5 equivalents top out at around £25k, regardless of how many years experience they have. This is in an industry where roles & responsibilities are comparable.

Maybe one of the issues with attracting people into nursing etc is the constant narrative that the pay & conditions are terrible? It’s repeated that often that I’m sure many people are put off before they look any further.

Oh dear, your just going to be told well your not saving peoples lives, your job is not comparable. Only nhs has a monopoly on saving peoples lives and being responsible for more than 20 people!

Nhs is the holy grail, you cannot compare or come close to it.

Hi thriwit, I know it's not really the point of this thread, but would you mind saying what degree you did and what sort of area you work in... Is it pharmaceuticals, biotechnology or something like that? I kind of wish I had gone down that route (although as you point out, your pay isn't great either). Just interested and trying to get an idea of what I could do outside of the NHS. Although it's probably too late for me now to retrain in your sort of field.

I suppose my question to all the people thinking the pay is OK, is why we are so desperately short of nurses?

@Stompythedinosaur

I suppose my question to all the people thinking the pay is OK, is why we are so desperately short of nurses?

We've heard the answer on this thread. Conditions. Management. Bullying culture. Red tape. Not enough autonomy to look after patients the way they see fit. Stress.

@Thriwit

Of course it can. Depending on the role it can require full PPE, extremes of temperature, lots of manual handling, being on your feet all day, etc etc. Alongside working complicated specialist equipment, handling hazardous substances, carrying out very fine-detail, dexterous work, doing a lot of maths, abiding by very stringent regulations, and potentially having thousands of people’s lives in your hands.

So your low paid no one would dispute that.

How about, instead of seeking to keep nurses on a low wage too, you try and get better pay and conditions for your industry?

This lowest common denominator approach on wages is just what the Govt want.

potentially having thousands of people’s lives in your hands

But not actually and with no personal responsibility for anyone’s life but your own. It’s a shame this thread’s become so focused on nursing salaries when junior doctors aren’t getting anything at all and have greater responsibility and worse working conditions.

I just came on to say thank you so much for everything you and your colleagues have done over the past however long you’ve been employed. For choosing to care every day, putting others ahead of yourself. Some of the posters here are brutal and I’d love to see them in a similar role to yours during a global pandemic and STILL caring.

I think the 3% increase is an insult. It’s possible to think this while also feeling that MOST other trades have been hard done by as well. I have family members who have worked overtime throughout in a customer service role (retail), on minimum wage, receiving nothing but abuse from vile anti mask people moaning about staff shortages and rules in general. My niece is young so she’s not even on National minimum wage, slaving away 48 hours a week and crying herself to sleep from so much abuse.

It is entirely possible to feel so sorry for NHS staff and at the same time acknowledging the incredibly hard work put in by teachers, retail staff and all other trades affected by the pandemic. What’s happening is a disgrace to our countries and I am so upset about it.

Again, thank you. Thank you so, so, SO much.

People, this isn’t a race to the bottom. Seriously.

I don’t think I said I was low paid? It’s all still meaningfully more than minimum wage. Most people I know earn less than £30k though - that’s a range of positions varying from bar staff through admin to scientists to accountants. I think the only people I know who earn more are either public sector, or the management where I work.

I also don’t necessarily agree with this lowest common denominator argument. Doesn’t it leave even more people behind? The people in jobs that are struggling badly but have no kind of leverage at all? I.e. minimum wage.
If over half your population think they’re badly paid and are struggling to afford to live, then isn’t the problem a high cost of living, not necessarily low comparative wages? You would have all efforts go to increasing the wages of people who already earn more than most, with the argument that “well if other people earn less, they should also just say they want a pay rise”. Unfortunately it just doesn’t work like that.

Regardless, there’s a difference between “badly paid” and “paid less than I want to be” - and it’s this that was my original point. If nurses want to be paid more (& who wouldn’t?) that’s one thing; to claim they’re badly paid is a different thing.

@Thriwit

I don’t think I said I was low paid? It’s all still meaningfully more than minimum wage. Most people I know earn less than £30k though - that’s a range of positions varying from bar staff through admin to scientists to accountants. I think the only people I know who earn more are either public sector, or the management where I work.

I also don’t necessarily agree with this lowest common denominator argument. Doesn’t it leave even more people behind? The people in jobs that are struggling badly but have no kind of leverage at all? I.e. minimum wage.
If over half your population think they’re badly paid and are struggling to afford to live, then isn’t the problem a high cost of living, not necessarily low comparative wages? You would have all efforts go to increasing the wages of people who already earn more than most, with the argument that “well if other people earn less, they should also just say they want a pay rise”. Unfortunately it just doesn’t work like that.

Regardless, there’s a difference between “badly paid” and “paid less than I want to be” - and it’s this that was my original point. If nurses want to be paid more (& who wouldn’t?) that’s one thing; to claim they’re badly paid is a different thing.

I do agree everyone has to be able to afford to live, but there does need to be disparity in pay to ensure certain roles are filled. I know that sounds like I am saying some people need to be paid crap wages but if you can get the same or similar money for doing a job straight from school, why would you go onto further study and a job that's very emotionally and physically challenging (before someone comes in with other jobs are too, yes they are, but not all jobs)? You probably wouldn't. Sectors such as nursing that are predominately full of women have run on the narrative of ah they do it as its a vocation, ah its not about the money it's about the fact you make a difference blah blah. But it is a job.

Regardless, there’s a difference between “badly paid” and “paid less than I want to be” - and it’s this that was my original point. If nurses want to be paid more (& who wouldn’t?) that’s one thing; to claim they’re badly paid is a different thing

Yes well the fact remains there is a huge shortfall in nurses in the UK and even if that was made up, it would still leave us way behind the europeans in staff numbers per capita.

So its pretty clear people are chosing to do better paid/less stressed jobs - so very clear poor pay is why.

Stompythedinosaur

I suppose my question to all the people thinking the pay is OK, is why we are so desperately short of nurses?

We've heard the answer on this thread. Conditions. Management. Bullying culture. Red tape. Not enough autonomy to look after patients the way they see fit. Stress.

Well, even if I accept that (which I don't fully, not all nurse roles are full of bullying or management problems, but they still have recruitment issues) do you know how we get people to take jobs that aren't enjoyable? Pay them adequately.

It’s a simple supply and demand issue. There is huge demand, so in order to be able to supply you have to make working in the NHS much more attractive than it is now. That’s going to include higher wages.

3% is a lot bigger annual payrise than I have ever had in my career (excluding times where I have been promoted)

I do think NHS is generally underpaid though

But vote Tory... this is what you get

@JaniieJones

'You can train to become an ANP. ANNP for us. You need 10 years neonatal experience including at least band 6 experience with management responsibilities. It is a masters course over 2 years I think. Very hard going'

Oh yes, no one is suggesting it is easy however career progression is not only possible but actively encouraged and tbh I would question the motivation of someone who is still a band five 7 years post qualifying. Band 5s should be starting jobs that is why they start at 25k..

Cringing for you. Your ignorance is showing. A staff (registered) nurse is a band 5. An experienced staff nurse is a band 5, a newly-qualified staff nurse is a band 5. Career progression is absolutely not actively encouraged. What's your source for that, Google? I'm not a nurse but I'm also on AfC. Every time someone leaves or retires their post is scrutinised and reviewed, particularly 8as and above. Very rarely will it be re-advertised at the same grade. There are people now doing roles as a 7 that a few years ago would generally have been done by an 8a, occasionally an 8b. Ditto things being done as a 6 that used to be a 7 (ANPs spring to mind, absolute joke the things people are asked to do for 35k). Where's the encouragement for progression? More responsibility for little extra reward. I've done two masters and a prescribing qualification and I'm still unlikely to get promotion as competition is so fierce. Any opportunity that comes up at the grade above are also rarely full time so in real terms I'd take a pay cut for promotion. They're also often advertised as temp posts first so you either need line manager approval for secondment (often refused) or to gamble and give up your permanent post. There goes that NHS job security you're on about.

AfC needs a revamp. It frustrates me, you almost need 5as and 5bs, 6a and 6bs etc to differentiate between skill and experience levels. A 7 with 20 years experience is inevitably far more useful than a 7 who was at uni 3 years ago, but they both exist in my organisation and both get paid very similar amounts.

People are going on about how nursing is paid fine because of starting salary. Yes but you barely progress from the starting salary, that's the difference! And anyone who thinks 'oh just get a band 6', I refer you to my first point.

@Thriwit

I’ve just looked at what NHS salaries are now, and honestly they seem good to me? They’re certainly more than most people earn where I live (clue: not in London or SE). But then the average salary in U.K. is around £29k, so once you hit 4 years at Band 5 you’re over that.

I’ve worked in scientific fields for years, and the starting salary for most new grads is around £21k; then seniors earn around £27-£28k. Band 5 equivalents top out at around £25k, regardless of how many years experience they have. This is in an industry where roles & responsibilities are comparable.

Maybe one of the issues with attracting people into nursing etc is the constant narrative that the pay & conditions are terrible? It’s repeated that often that I’m sure many people are put off before they look any further.

The salary may not look that bad on paper. However if you have any idea what nurses do on a day to day basis then you would realise how incredibly low paid it is for the responsibility that they hold.

To everyone saying nurses get paid well , I would love to see them spend a week Ona ward as a nurse then tell me the same. I have done many jobs and nothing will EVER compare to the emotional , physical and mental burden of being a band 5 nurse working shifts on a ward . I am not religious yet would pray on my way into work every day that my day would be ok .

@Dreamstate

So let me summarise, nurses loaning pagrise isn't enough and want more, they are asked okay well how much do you think your salary should be then? What amount do you think justifies your job....

Response...I dont know.

So you don't know yourselves what you think you should be paid but you know you want to paid more and want bigger payrises.

I mean surely even £50k at least one of you would say yeah that about right or no I think £40k is good etc.

I mean in my job I feel it should be at £55k, currently I'm on £50k so not miles apart but I think £50k is a bit low for what it is...point being at least I have an idea of what I think is reasonable

Who was asked ? Are you saying that all nurses aren't able to say how much they think they should be paid ?!

Nursing salaries are SO shit for what they have to cover. I'm always in awe of my nursing colleagues.

@JaniieJones Did you... did you read my post? You're actually incorrect. It's quite arrogant to sit there and argue with numerous NHS staff who know what we're talking about, insisting you know best. There isn't necessarily an expectation that nurses will progress beyond a staff nurse, or maybe charge nurse (band 6). Wards rely on experienced (20+ years) staff nurses. Also encouragement =/= expectation so your point is invalid anyway. Also as I said, I've done further training and qualifications. There is nowhere to apply for promotion currently. A senior colleague has just retired. Her job will likely be re-banded at my current grade. They don't really want people to get promoted, where would the money come from?

'You can tell you have no idea about the reality'

I have plenty of idea of the reality. The nhs is a good organisation to work for. As I've said better holiday, sickness allowances and pension scheme than the private sector. Plenty of scope for further training and promotion if you cba.

I have a lot of respect for hcps, I know many but the defeatist woe is me attitude on this thread is pitiful.