NHS Pay award

[Thedogscollar]

So this is what they have come back with from the insulting 1% offer by increasing it to a paltry 3%.
Workers are leaving in their droves we have a massive deficit in nursing and midwifery which is worsening daily.

I work in the South East of England, we are hugely affected with shortages in staffing, virtually every 12.5 hrs shift I do we cannot have a break due to work acuity and lack of staff. We have junior staff in tears with the pressure put upon them.
We aren't paid for our break and we are hard pushed to get it back as time owing. We cover empty shifts on the bank over and above our contracted hours as we know how hard it is for our colleagues in there.
We are all reaching breaking point some are there now and gone off sick. It is exhausting physically but more so mentally as you know before you even get to work what it's going to be like.

I have payslips going back 10 plus years and in that time my salary has barely changed and I am at the top of my band.

Our management team held an urgent meeting the other day to discuss the crisis going on within our trust with staffing and work acuity. Nothing was really dealt with just more management speak.

This government has to look after the NHS staff that have given so much and still are. Staff retention is in crisis and by offering this paltry pay rise they are doing nothing to stop this disaster becoming a momentous catastrophe resulting in even worsening patient safety levels being eroded even more.

How on earth can this government justify 30 plus billions for track n trace and HSS yet not offer a decent pay rise to NHS workers and in that I include care workers too.

Boris and co should hang their heads in shame but as per they think they are doing so well in offering us anything.

I'm sure I will have people coming on now to say they have lost jobs and taken paycuts and for that I am truly sorry but this cannot be used as an arguement for a huge group of essential workers being financially and emotionally abused by their employer which is exactly what this government are doing.

You keep saying ah you can stay clinical, but there is always a higher level of management tasks as you progress, some people don't want that and that's fair enough, they want to fully do actual nursing.

Very true
Also we need band 5s and band 6s on the floor .
Its not a lesser role , its the bedrock of nursing care.

@Iquitit

Well actually it does matter, since most of the previous posters and op claim that they work too hard because you know they have to do 12hr shifts. So yes the length of their shift is one reason why they are saying they deserve more money.

You don't really have a life at all for those 3 days, not if you want to eat, wash yourself and sleep in between work, and unless you live around the corner, travel time. From experience (in care not nursing) your 1st day off is spent recovering, many on this thread have described how they don't get breaks to eat etc, that takes its toll over 3 consecutive days.
It speaks more to the conditions they're working under than the pay. It would make no difference to take home pay if the same rate was paid and the same hours worked but if shifts were shorter staff would be better rested and that would lead to less stress, more flexibility in covering sickness and holiday rather than just having to go short staffed and hopefully then, better retention.
But if you're expecting people to work in the way they currently are, then yes, they need better financial renumeration for that.

Now you clarify that its 12hr shifts over 3 days its even more stark that their complaint they work hard because they do longer shifts is a moot point as they don't work 5 days a week.

Last time I checked there were 7 days in a week and 5+3 =8🤷

Working a 12 hour day is completely different to working an 8 hour one, those 4 hours make a difference, do you do 12 hours X3 days in a row in your job?

Which is why I then asked so if and say it happened that there was enough people so shifts could be 8hrs over 5 days so you can rested and have a better lifestyle akin to what majority of people do then would you be happier on the same pay

The response was no cos splitting hours over 5 days and doing shorter shifts makes no difference yet the complaint is that they deserve more money becuasr they have to do 12hr shifts and like you say deserve to be remunerated extra for that 12hr shift pattern. So tak the 12hr shift pattern away then why would you feel you deserve more then?

See the whole argument falls apart for those complaining because if you fixed the long shift pattern to remove the complaints about how hard it is to work those long hours then what is your reason to justify more money....

@Dreamstate, this isn't solely about people on those shift patterns though. For example, I regularly work 10 hours, 5 days per week, then on top of that have on-call shifts where I'm responsible for out of hours care in my specialty across several sites - often for 24 hours but sometimes for 48 hours. If I manage to get some time to rest or a few hours to sleep in that time, great, but it's anything but guaranteed and I can be called to an emergency at any point in that. Then, it's back to 8-10 hours the next day.

As I've already said, despite those hours and that level of responsibility, I would be happy to not take a pay rise if it meant the money could go to my colleagues who have been chronically underpaid for years, or if it meant working shorter shifts. It would be really nice to have time to spend with my family and friends, many of whom I haven't seen since the pandemic started.

The pay debate also covers other healthcare professionals, who are essential for the running of the NHS, so it's not realistic to base your argument on a shift pattern that a lot of us don't do.

The Met police switched from 4x12 hour shifts (2 days, 2 nights then 4 days off) to 8 hour shifts - 5 on 2 off - a number of years back. Sickness shot up, people left in droves. They switched back within 6 months.

So it’s not a simple solution by any means.

My hospital team has a different feeling to the one you state. We are happy with 3%. May people have lost jobs in covid and we are happy to be employed. If is was 12 or 15% we’d only have to pay it in tax so what’s the point? People like you sound grabby and out of touch with what’s happening in other sectors.

@NavigatingAdolescence

The Met police switched from 4x12 hour shifts (2 days, 2 nights then 4 days off) to 8 hour shifts - 5 on 2 off - a number of years back. Sickness shot up, people left in droves. They switched back within 6 months.

So it’s not a simple solution by any means.

I wonder why people hated the change so much?! 8 hour shifts sound so much more manageable.

Lots of people didn’t live in London. Think some were in France. They would travel and rent a room for the 3 nights they needed to be in London then go home for the other 4. 5 days on 2 days off didn’t allow that.

As others have said, childcare expenses increase, commuting costs increase, you’re having less time to recover from work each week. They lost some shift enhancements and opportunities for overtime. 3 8 hour night shifts is more disruptive to life than 2 and therefore risks wellbeing more. With a 4 on 4 off then annual leave you work less than half the year (in terms of days). 5 on 2 off you don’t.

Loads of reasons.

Shorter shifts in that sort of environment aren't as efficient. By the time you have done handovers etc you lose a higher proportion of the shift, kind of like driving lessons. If you have a one hour lesson and 10 mins is setting up the car, you have essentially 50 minutes of driving. If you have a 2 hour lesson with 10 minutes setting the car up you have an hour and 50 mins; so if you view them both as 2 hours:

2 hours of 1 hour lessons: 1 hour 40 driving
1 2 hour lesson: 1 hour 50 of driving

So if shift patterns are 8 hours that means you have 3 shifts a day, which means extra time lost doing the additional handovers etc.

And that was the issue. Management consultants thought it sounded more manageable without living it or asking the staff concerned any questions.

I don’t think 12 hour shifts are an issue. Before things turned bad, you’d have a break at 11 ish and then again at 3/4ish then a quick tea break at maybe 6ish just for ten minutes. You’d leave on time giving you enough time to go home and eat a meal. Instead you’re leaving an hour late at half nine; not having a break at all, not even going to the loo. It’s the conditions that are bad. But there aren’t enough staff to sort those conditions because there are no incentives to work in the nhs anymore.

@NavigatingAdolescence

And that was the issue. Management consultants thought it sounded more manageable without living it or asking the staff concerned any questions.

Hmmm, yes, I can see that happening!

The management at my friend’s school decided to cheer everyone up by doing bacon rolls and coffee during Friday assembly (primary school). Staff preferred to use that time in their classrooms doing marking/prep/displays/assessment etc. Teachers were told they were ungrateful to not spend the time sitting on the staff room eating what SLT had arranged for them. The food was cancelled and teachers were told they now had to be in the hall during the assembly instead. Lots of bad feeling between staff and leadership ever since!

What could be done easily/simply to help improve work/life balance, do you think?

NHS management is shite and no pay increase will help with that. However I find complaining about the pay raise a very bad taste given what is happening with the country now. Nobody else getting any pay rises, huge economy debts, lots of people unemployed. In this circumstances any pay rise at all should be greatly appreciated.

@Iwonder08

NHS management is shite and no pay increase will help with that. However I find complaining about the pay raise a very bad taste given what is happening with the country now. Nobody else getting any pay rises, huge economy debts, lots of people unemployed. In this circumstances any pay rise at all should be greatly appreciated.

While I agree with the rest of your post, not all NHS management is shit. The previous trust I worked in was appalling and put me off the NHS, but I took a risk on another trust and have actually found it to be brilliant, such a great place to work for so many reasons and fantastic management. They can’t do enough for staff, make you feel very well supported when needed but are largely hands off the rest of the time so you don’t feel micromanaged. I can genuinely say they do a great job under challenging circumstances. They’re all clinicians too so they’ve done the job and know it inside out.

I do think it’s important to share that as there’s a prevailing attitude I’ve noticed that NHS management is shit everywhere but it isn’t, it can be done well and in many places it is. I wouldn’t dream of leaving the NHS tbh, the job I have (patient facing) is perfect for me, great benefits, pay, flexibility, support, and it’s rewarding and easy to balance with family life. Our trust do a regular staff satisfaction survey and it’s a delight to see that the majority of staff are really happy with their workplace.

So its settled then those posters using the 12hr shifts are hard work and therefore I deserve a payrise are just using it as an excuse then because going to a 5day working week isn't palatable either.

So those who complain they work harder than others because they do long shifts is basically a load of bs since they have 3 days off!

Because as I said before what money would you think is enough? £80k?

The point is long shift patterns for fewer days doesn't mean you should be paid more

Equally others on here said its more disruptive to life if they do 5 days a week but 8hrs a day as childcare costs go up etc.

So you basically can't please nhs workers

So you basically can't please nhs workers

A fair wage doesn't seem outrageous, bearing in mind there are plenty of corporate civil service entry level jobs that pay more than a nurse, who is a graduate and has a high level of responsibility with the expectation of continuous learning. I would say probably around £28k min starting wage which means it's not easy to walk into another role for the same, and reduces the number who take bank shifts to stay afloat.

So let's hear it then, nhs workers, what slary do you think you should be earning....£50k, £60k .....

www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(21)00768-6.pdf

An interesting article which proves more nurses = better outcomes.

The savings in terms of length of stay reductions and reduced re admissions are greater than money spent on the extra nurses.

Which is why nurses in most Australian states have 4 patients or less each.

@Dreamstate

So let's hear it then, nhs workers, what slary do you think you should be earning....£50k, £60k .....

I would like to know this too. I was recently pleasantly surprised to learn that nurses starting salary is about £25k, which I thought was actually a decent starting salary, with what looks like decent pay progression within each band.

5 day working week isn’t palatable? Pray do tell, who would you like to care for patients on the shifts where there are NO nurses because it would be much harder to cover a three shift rotation than a two. 🙄🙄 what other job are you responsible for more than 20 patients lives?? When nurses make mistakes we are hauled over the coals. We could literally kill someone if we make a mistake. What other job? And decent pay progression?! Are you in cahoots with some of the other posters on here.. who seem to have disappeared and been replaced with other posters spouting the same rubbish 🤣

with what looks like decent pay progression within each band.

In the higher bands you stay on the same pay for 5-6 years before getting an increase.

@Dreamstate

Because as I said before what money would you think is enough? £80k?

The point is long shift patterns for fewer days doesn't mean you should be paid more

Equally others on here said its more disruptive to life if they do 5 days a week but 8hrs a day as childcare costs go up etc.

So you basically can't please nhs workers

It does seem rather puzzling that posters moan about 12hr shifts but aren't keen on shorter shifts over longer days either.

Much the same as a pp moaning that there weren't higher band posts clinically based, when I pointed out yes there are a poster then goes on to say ah but you need to train for promotion. No shit sherlock! That is what generally happens yes.

I think the gist is some want to do a band 5 role for a band 8 pay, work part time for full time pay and of course have a 12% pay rise too. #CloudCuckooLand.

@Kittyswhiskers

5 day working week isn’t palatable? Pray do tell, who would you like to care for patients on the shifts where there are NO nurses because it would be much harder to cover a three shift rotation than a two. 🙄🙄 what other job are you responsible for more than 20 patients lives?? When nurses make mistakes we are hauled over the coals. We could literally kill someone if we make a mistake. What other job? And decent pay progression?! Are you in cahoots with some of the other posters on here.. who seem to have disappeared and been replaced with other posters spouting the same rubbish 🤣

Well there are other jobs where people are responsible for large numbers of peoples lives. Drivers (e.g. transport), teachers. Lets not forget the tram driver who would of been hauled over the coals as you say after the croydon crash in which people died.

Nhs doesn't have a monopoly over being the only job where your responsible for peoples lives of more than 20 ppl.

And yes you could have an 8hr 5 day week if you increases number of workers. Its not beyond anyone to be able to implement that.

So let's hear it then, nhs workers, what slary do you think you should be earning....£50k, £60k .....

I don't think it would be outrageous for nurses to be paid similarly to professions like teaching or police.