Naked children in courtyard cafés

[bibblybop]

Today DH and I took DS to a local beauty spot. Like a National Trust but not actually NT if you get me? Beautiful gardens, old mansion, gorgeous.

We were having a bite to eat in the courtyard cafe near a family with several young children running around. Fine. Except the youngest little girl (roughly 3yo) was running around completely naked.

I'm not a prude, and I'm very sympathetic to parents as I know from experience that kids can be unruly/unreasonable and sometimes decorum has to come second to a child's need (i'm thinking public wees in an emergency kind of scenarios here...)

But I feel like allowing your child to run around completely naked in an outdoor café is a bit much? People are there trying to enjoy their lunch while a little girl is romping around everyone's tables with no clothes on... I know it's hot but it's a cafe FGS

I'd love to know people's thoughts on this because I feel like I'm missing something 🙈😂 Surely they can't think that's acceptable? Or is it?!

@Marty13

Is it possible that she soiled her clothes and they decided that naked is better than in soiled clothes ? For all you know one of the parents was rushing home for clean clothes at the time...

Even if this is the case, why wouldnt you just take the child home with you instead of leaving her naked in public?

if I was in the courtyard cafe it wouldn't bother me at all.

As a mother of a two and three-year-old girl this would not bother me in the slightest personally, but I would never allow my own children to run around naked in such an environment because I feel that they do need to have some privacy (even if that is just a pair of pants). Id also be worried about sunburn and other people finding full nudity (even in a three year old a bit inappropriate). That said, I wouldn't bat an eyelid myself.

Absolutely no problem with young children running around naked in gardens / on the beach etc

@Twistiesandshout

if I was in the courtyard cafe it wouldn't bother me at all.

It would if naked child ran into your table and scalded themselves on your tea.

However I wouldn't let DD do it, sunburn, others might be offended, pervs etc

beigebriwnblue do you think there are fewer pedophiles around today than five years ago?

I question whether the approach that tells 3 year old children that they need to cover heir bodies has done anything to prevent harm to children.

You don't 'tell a 3 year old to cover their body' [implying it's shameful to be naked]

You parent them and make sure they are in appropriate clothes for the setting.

Just like it's bad manners to let dogs sit on cafe seats, it's bad manners to allow a naked bottom of a 3 year old on a seat or a table.

Making sure your child is covered up in a cafe with knickers or a dress / shorts is not unreasonable. It's common sense.

I doubt many are drinking tea in the heat today, and it would bother me regardless if a child got burned (although I don't drink hot drinks so wouldn't be mine :) )

People are there trying to enjoy their lunch while a little girl is romping around everyone's tables with no clothes on... I know it's hot but it's a cafe FGS

In what way does that child stop you enjoying your lunch? I must be missing something.....

@Nietzschethehiker

I wouldn't because I spent a long time working in part with sex offenders. I'm afraid it's palpably not true to say paedophile are usually known to the child. Sex offenders are ..yes...because they need (mostly) to be able to gain trust to access the child. Someone who is that way inclined but can't commit the offence will still be looking inappropriately and would absolutely take the picture. It can take a huge amount to track a picture so you may never know its been taken and used for nefarious means.

I accept my perspective is skewed by my previous profession but I do not ever allow my DC in public even partially clothed let alone naked. They are older now at 8 and 5 but even as toddlers at the absolute basic they had shorts on but it was extremely rare they didn't have a t shirt on as well. That and the sunburn issue.

Honestly I am not judgy and I would have had an issue with the parents but it certainly wasn't an option for my DC. Always carried spare clothes. Frankly I would have rather them continue in dirty clothes (spare clothes were for wet etc that would be uncomfortable).

It's just not needed. It's a rare occasion you can't plan for actual nakedness (and I say that as a middling level parent with both an SEN and a NT child). It's not about different cultures It's just a bloody stupid idea.

Should I have to consider paedophilia when my children are in public? No of course I shouldn't but I do because I'd rather they were protected than pander to my need for naivete.

Agree 100%.

You hit the nail on the head

You’ve also come from a profession of what is known. My father was a police officer and worked on many child murder cases and says the exact same thing.

I'm assuming these paedophiles go on beaches too

@onlyconnect

beigebriwnblue do you think there are fewer pedophiles around today than five years ago?

No. But to state that 'no one is doing anything at all' is really offensive to those who as I said, are busting their guts to tackle this.

Including safeguarding staff in schools and youth organisations. I've done the safeguarding training and most recently was a parent governor of a primary school. I did the training . It is difficult. You might try it yourself.

[quote LucyLockhearts]@bibblybop Why don't you email the manager/ caretaker of this place?

It's fine to sound off on a forum but if it's something that bothers you a lot, do something constructive.

If this mansion is private property, or even NT or EH, the people in charge have every right to leave notices saying that children must wear clothing if in the fountain or playing, or whatever.

It's a shame that someone else who saw it wasn't a bit bolder to tackle the parents and say' she's a lovely sweet girl, but it's not really appropriate to allow her to run around naked in a cafe.' Or to have spoken to the cafe staff or manager at the time.[/quote]
I wouldn't say I was 'sounding off', more asking whether other people think this is acceptable or whether I was being OTT.

I've never seen it before at this place, and we go here a lot so I don't know how helpful it would be sending an email about this rare occurrence. I can't say I've ever seen it anywhere but a beach.

I wouldn't have approached the parents because I didn't know whether other people would consider this inappropriate or whether it's just me that felt it wasn't socially acceptable. So I would never deign to tell someone how to parent their children unless I felt that my feelings were universal. I wasn't sure in this instance, hence my post.

The last thing you would want when being a vigilante modesty matron would be for the entire courtyard to cry out in unison that it's actually very sweet and they were loving their lunchtime matinee 🤷🏻

I was referring to the 'stranger danger' mantra.

Obviously the situation is a lot more complicate than a few posts on mumsnet.

If this is what some parents wish to do, then up to them.

Please know you are putting your kids at risk.

Check CEOP Child Exploitation and Online Protection Agency for up to date stats on safeguarding and measures they are trying to put in place.

www.ceop.police.uk/safety-centre/

Also NSPCC for ways in which they are trying to prevent images being duplicated online . They have a helpline

@Nietzschethehiker

I wouldn't because I spent a long time working in part with sex offenders. I'm afraid it's palpably not true to say paedophile are usually known to the child. Sex offenders are ..yes...because they need (mostly) to be able to gain trust to access the child. Someone who is that way inclined but can't commit the offence will still be looking inappropriately and would absolutely take the picture. It can take a huge amount to track a picture so you may never know its been taken and used for nefarious means.

I accept my perspective is skewed by my previous profession but I do not ever allow my DC in public even partially clothed let alone naked. They are older now at 8 and 5 but even as toddlers at the absolute basic they had shorts on but it was extremely rare they didn't have a t shirt on as well. That and the sunburn issue.

Honestly I am not judgy and I would have had an issue with the parents but it certainly wasn't an option for my DC. Always carried spare clothes. Frankly I would have rather them continue in dirty clothes (spare clothes were for wet etc that would be uncomfortable).

It's just not needed. It's a rare occasion you can't plan for actual nakedness (and I say that as a middling level parent with both an SEN and a NT child). It's not about different cultures It's just a bloody stupid idea.

Should I have to consider paedophilia when my children are in public? No of course I shouldn't but I do because I'd rather they were protected than pander to my need for naivete.

I wouldn't because I spent a long time working in part with sex offenders. I'm afraid it's palpably not true to say paedophile are usually known to the child. Sex offenders are ..yes...because they need (mostly) to be able to gain trust to access the child.

Go on. Explain the difference. Sex offenders or paedophiles. I know, so am waiting fo ryour interpretation.

@beigebrownblue

I was referring to the 'stranger danger' mantra.

Obviously the situation is a lot more complicate than a few posts on mumsnet.

If this is what some parents wish to do, then up to them.

Please know you are putting your kids at risk.

I don't post photos of me/us anywhere online. Neither does anyone else without our consent.

The number of people who *do post photos, or allow their kids to post photos is shocking, frankly, but that's their choice. The adults, not the kids, obviously.

You don't 'tell a 3 year old to cover their body' [implying it's shameful to be naked]
You parent them and make sure they are in appropriate clothes for the setting
This hits the nail on the head. It's not appropriate to be naked in most settings.

@claralara42

People are there trying to enjoy their lunch while a little girl is romping around everyone's tables with no clothes on... I know it's hot but it's a cafe FGS

In what way does that child stop you enjoying your lunch? I must be missing something.....

Maybe I'm weird but I just don't want to see naked people when I'm eating. Adults or children. I don't have a problem with naked children at all. Like I don't have a problem with people sneezing but I don't want to watch them do it while I eat.

@MapGirlExtraordinaire

I'd find it cute tbh. My two have been naked in public many times, they want to and I can't think of a good reason to say no. If it bothers someone else then that's their problem.

Noise and running so close as to cause people aggravation I would put a stop to, but a 3 yr old's little naked bum? Nah, fine in my book.

And therein lies the problem

My now adult son was very curious when he was little - always asking questions non stop. If he'd have seen her I would have have my meal stopped by having to explain to him that the naked child did not have it's willy chopped off and then on to why girls don't have the same genitals as boys etc etc.

I think I would have just preemptive the whole explanation by telling the parents to cover the child up. It's disgusting in an eating area.

30 C is only 86 degrees fahrenheit!! It's been 116 degrees here - thats 47 C. Would that be an excuse for the adults to get naked in a cafe as well in England?

Here they often have signs that read, 'No shirt, no shoes no service'.

3yo running around naked wouldn't bother me in general.

But I agree with you. Certain places it's just not acceptable - and a public cafe is one of those!

As for folks easy peasy to get clothes on or leave with a 3 year old yeah right bollocks. A kicking screaming 3 year old is like fighting a shark in a swimming pool

I have a 3yo (as do/have had probably most posters on this site), he has tantrums when I make him do something that he doesn't want to do. It's hard. But I get on with it and brush his teeth/put his clothes on/remove him from places etc etc because it's part of being a parent

Quote. Doodlebug.
I don't post photos of me/us anywhere online. Neither does anyone else without our consent.

The number of people who *do post photos, or allow their kids to post photos is shocking, frankly, but that's their choice. The adults, not the kids, obviously.

Me:

I don't post them either. And I completely agree with this comment.

All anyone can do is raise awareness.

Wouldn't particularly bother me seeing a naked child, because there's nothing to see. Kid are unhygienic full stop, so a nappy or pair of shorts isn't doing much. The running about would bother me more.
Stroke of bad luck for a pervert to be in a courtyard cafe at the time some child decided to get naked. Would have thought they'd be more inclined to widen their chances by going to the beach, where everyone seems ok seeing naked children.