Naked children in courtyard cafés

[bibblybop]

Today DH and I took DS to a local beauty spot. Like a National Trust but not actually NT if you get me? Beautiful gardens, old mansion, gorgeous.

We were having a bite to eat in the courtyard cafe near a family with several young children running around. Fine. Except the youngest little girl (roughly 3yo) was running around completely naked.

I'm not a prude, and I'm very sympathetic to parents as I know from experience that kids can be unruly/unreasonable and sometimes decorum has to come second to a child's need (i'm thinking public wees in an emergency kind of scenarios here...)

But I feel like allowing your child to run around completely naked in an outdoor café is a bit much? People are there trying to enjoy their lunch while a little girl is romping around everyone's tables with no clothes on... I know it's hot but it's a cafe FGS

I'd love to know people's thoughts on this because I feel like I'm missing something 🙈😂 Surely they can't think that's acceptable? Or is it?!

I have a three year old who just will not keep her clothes on. It’s a nightmare but I would absolutely not allow her to be running around anywhere in public naked. However, if the little girl was anything like my daughter , she may have issues around wet clothes. My little girl has absolute hysterics at the slightest drop of water on her clothes so I make sure I have at least one change with me at all times. Hell would freeze over before I would entertain her going starkers in cafe. It’s completely inappropriate.

I think I'd have had a word with the stewards or whoever was in charge on the day, if it was a site where people pay to enter, rather than a park.

If the child was sitting on seats in a cafe or climbing on tables, it's unhygienic to say the least.

If it's a place you visit often, maybe email them and discuss your concerns and they might nip this in the bud if other parents do it.

For me it comes down to the fact that it's a parent's responsibility to keep their children safe and that includes keeping their privates private. If, as a fully grown adult, you would happily run around a NT courtyard café in the buff that's a choice you've made in full knowledge of the risks/potential implications. A 3yo is not capable of weighing up these things.

I'm also struggling to get my head round posters saying they couldn't get their children to wear clothes in public...? Surely it's as difficult as, "you have two choices: either you get yourself dressed or I help you put your clothes on". If they refuse either option, you leave. As with any unwanted behaviour, consistent natural consequences will help them get the message that it's not safe.

Teaching children that have something to fear does them harm. I'm not suggesting that anyone says explicitly to children when they tell them to keep their clothes on that there is something to be frightened of, but the message is there. In fact children have no need to fear strangers.
We have accepted a culture of stranger danger and supposed "awareness " that has led us to be fearful and hinder children's innocence and freedom without doing a single thing to prevent those who want to harm children from doing so.
We should all think about this before jumping on the bandwagon that's one step away from victim-blaming.
Im actually really shocked at the overwhelming response on this thread. It really does nothing good for children in my view but make the adults around them feel a bit better.

I wouldn't do it but doesn't bother me

I don't tHink pervs are going to film that. There's enough material on the dark web for them

@bibblybop

Interesting that people would be okay with this on a beach, but not in a courtyard cafe. Why? What's the differerence? Access to sand and water makes it okay?

Personally I feel that the beach is a place where it's commonplace to be scantily clad/semi or even fully nude (especially children) and when you go to the beach you expect this to a degree. So the onus is on you for going if that's something that bothers you.

A café however...

Beach cafes. Lots of those during our travels. Right on the beach.

@onlyconnect

Teaching children that have something to fear does them harm. I'm not suggesting that anyone says explicitly to children when they tell them to keep their clothes on that there is something to be frightened of, but the message is there. In fact children have no need to fear strangers. We have accepted a culture of stranger danger and supposed "awareness " that has led us to be fearful and hinder children's innocence and freedom without doing a single thing to prevent those who want to harm children from doing so. We should all think about this before jumping on the bandwagon that's one step away from victim-blaming. Im actually really shocked at the overwhelming response on this thread. It really does nothing good for children in my view but make the adults around them feel a bit better.

If they trip up someone carrying hot tea / coffee / gravy / fried food/ glass... they need to learn about this danger. And if the parents indulge running about in cafés then yes, I would blame them. For not parenting.

@bibblybop you have no idea why she was naked unless next to their table.

As for folks easy peasy to get clothes on or leave with a 3 year old yeah right bollocks. A kicking screaming 3 year old is like fighting a shark in a swimming pool

As for not knowing where to look ffs not at the child it’s easy.

As for unhygienic you do know all tables and chairs are wiped down now a days with throw away clothes

I can’t stand kids running round my table when I’m eating, but it’s tricky with these courtyards. Was it definitely ‘cafe’ space, or general courtyard in which it was ok to play but also had tables in?

3 year olds outdoors in public play / relaxing areas doesn’t bother me at all.

@Rhinothunder

I think British people are very prude. Toddler outside on a day when it's over 30 degrees? No problem.

Not acceptable in older kids unless on a beach / river / sprinkler etc though

It's really cliched and lazy to continually say the British are prudes. They really aren't. And this nothing to do with being prudish. You actually wouldn't see this in any of the so called less prudish Countries. Never seen it in Germany, Sweden, France for example. Italy, no, Greece, no etc etc. It's not appropriate and exposed akin of young children in the sun today is just not on.

HYGIENE!!! scream people who refuse to wear masks/distance during a pandemic.

Beach cafes. So many beach cafes in Europe, and plenty in the UK. UK climate doesn't always allow for peopel to wander scantily clad/naked unless they're up for hypothermia... but when it's 30 plus c, as today....

Don't want to see? Don't look.

paedophiles and child sex offenders tend to be family members. Or family friends "Trusted" by the family. Yes, I do have experience of that. As do several of my older friends.

Doesn't mean you needlessly put your child at risk of perverted gazes. Just because a stranger doesn't have physical access to your child... you still don't let them put butt naked in a cafe

@onlyconnect

Teaching children that have something to fear does them harm. I'm not suggesting that anyone says explicitly to children when they tell them to keep their clothes on that there is something to be frightened of, but the message is there. In fact children have no need to fear strangers. We have accepted a culture of stranger danger and supposed "awareness " that has led us to be fearful and hinder children's innocence and freedom without doing a single thing to prevent those who want to harm children from doing so. We should all think about this before jumping on the bandwagon that's one step away from victim-blaming. Im actually really shocked at the overwhelming response on this thread. It really does nothing good for children in my view but make the adults around them feel a bit better.

'stranger danger' is massively outdated as a concept and the best schools who really know about safeguarding don't use that term anymore.

I'm afraid kids are more likely to be assaulted by someone they know, slightly know, or an acquaintance, someone they see every day.

this view is very naive.
And no, those who recognise the danger are not victim blaming.

Once you have been at the coal face of something happening or it is close to you, you change your mind. I'm glad I did and became more careful.

That sounds like my Grandad, we've told him not to do it, especially in National Trust properties, as we don't want to get our membership rescinded.

It's a joke don't get upset...

@Doodlebug71

HYGIENE!!! scream people who refuse to wear masks/distance during a pandemic.

Beach cafes. So many beach cafes in Europe, and plenty in the UK. UK climate doesn't always allow for peopel to wander scantily clad/naked unless they're up for hypothermia... but when it's 30 plus c, as today....

Don't want to see? Don't look.

Yes but this wasn't a beach café.

And you don't know that the people noting that it's unhygienic refuse to wear masks so I'm not sure about the point you're trying to make there.

as for not doing a 'single thing'
what rubbish.
Safeguarding agencies, the general public, schools and specialist arms of the police child protection are working their arses off to tackle this kind of international activity.

Where have you been for the past five years?

I wouldn't because I spent a long time working in part with sex offenders. I'm afraid it's palpably not true to say paedophile are usually known to the child. Sex offenders are ..yes...because they need (mostly) to be able to gain trust to access the child. Someone who is that way inclined but can't commit the offence will still be looking inappropriately and would absolutely take the picture. It can take a huge amount to track a picture so you may never know its been taken and used for nefarious means.

I accept my perspective is skewed by my previous profession but I do not ever allow my DC in public even partially clothed let alone naked. They are older now at 8 and 5 but even as toddlers at the absolute basic they had shorts on but it was extremely rare they didn't have a t shirt on as well. That and the sunburn issue.

Honestly I am not judgy and I would have had an issue with the parents but it certainly wasn't an option for my DC. Always carried spare clothes. Frankly I would have rather them continue in dirty clothes (spare clothes were for wet etc that would be uncomfortable).

It's just not needed. It's a rare occasion you can't plan for actual nakedness (and I say that as a middling level parent with both an SEN and a NT child). It's not about different cultures It's just a bloody stupid idea.

Should I have to consider paedophilia when my children are in public? No of course I shouldn't but I do because I'd rather they were protected than pander to my need for naivete.

No, very inappropriate.

*wouldn't have had an issue with the parents

[quote Dullardmullard]@bibblybop you have no idea why she was naked unless next to their table.

As for folks easy peasy to get clothes on or leave with a 3 year old yeah right bollocks. A kicking screaming 3 year old is like fighting a shark in a swimming pool

As for not knowing where to look ffs not at the child it’s easy.

As for unhygienic you do know all tables and chairs are wiped down now a days with throw away clothes[/quote]
I was well within earshot of their table. I don't know why she didn't have clothes on as we arrived after that but I do know that she'd taken off her pants and refused to put them on again (I say refused, the parents asked once in the time we were there).

The child was running around so it wasn't a case of 'don't look at x table because there's a naked child there' it was a case of 'don't look beyond your table at any point even to daydream lest you accidentally see naked child and look like you're looking at said naked child' if you see what I mean?

And I'm sure the other posters are aware of the difficulties of taming reluctant children but rather their points were that they would take a stand and deal with the ensuing tantrums rather than allow inappropriate behaviour. One poster said if their child kicked off they'd take them home and I have to agree. I'd rather have a stand off with my son and potentially even take him home than allow him to run naked around a café, climbing over furniture while people are eating.

I’ve been to beach cafes all over the world. I’ve yet to see a naked child running round in one.

We’re all well aware of how hot it is today, however it’s not too hot for a pair of cotton knickers and a loose cotton dress while eating. If the child can’t stand to be dressed in that then their own garden is the best place for them, imo.

@MarianneUnfaithful

I can’t stand kids running round my table when I’m eating, but it’s tricky with these courtyards. Was it definitely ‘cafe’ space, or general courtyard in which it was ok to play but also had tables in?

3 year olds outdoors in public play / relaxing areas doesn’t bother me at all.

I mean, it was a cobbled courtyard and no 'play' things so I wouldn't consider it a café-come-play area as it's not exactly child friendly.

@bibblybop Why don't you email the manager/ caretaker of this place?

It's fine to sound off on a forum but if it's something that bothers you a lot, do something constructive.

If this mansion is private property, or even NT or EH, the people in charge have every right to leave notices saying that children must wear clothing if in the fountain or playing, or whatever.

It's a shame that someone else who saw it wasn't a bit bolder to tackle the parents and say' she's a lovely sweet girl, but it's not really appropriate to allow her to run around naked in a cafe.' Or to have spoken to the cafe staff or manager at the time.

beigebriwnblue I'm not saying that not a single thing has been attempted to prevent harm to children. People are spend their lives working to this end as you say.
I question whether the approach that tells 3 year old children that they need to cover heir bodies has done anything to prevent harm to children.
Children's lives are diminished by not having freedom to play unsupervised, by helicopter parenting and by being taught to fear the world at large. Not letting a 3 year old who wants be be naked be as they want is an early example of that way of bringing up children.
That in itself does nothing to prevent the people who do want to harm children in doing so, but it does give a message to the child.

There was a program on the telly called “Catching Paedophiles” or something along those lines. One of the ones they did catch had left a number on the wall of the seafront toilets with a message which said to call for naked pictures of children. It made my blood run cold. I’d never let my children run round naked anywhere, and I’ve never been one for seeing a paedophile on every corner, however I did wonder just how many children he’d been looking at to photograph. It’s just too risky