To think most of MN don’t know what having no money means

[icecolddrinks]

And that admitting to having none is humiliating.

I see it here all the time. Someone has no money. Someone suggests something to make life easier. The person says again they have no money. MN suggest a cheaper version.

On the thread about dress up so many people were saying to tell the school.

I know debt and low incomes aren’t ideal but they aren’t uncommon either so why is it so hard to acknowledge that someone might have 3p in their bank account and no money?

@Iquitit

I'm poor because I have massive debts" means you've chosen to borrow beyond your means, and need debt management

Nope. My biggest debt was council tax, with hundreds added on when I couldn't pay 2 months installments so they then made the whole thing payable, and when I couldn't miraculously pull that amount out of thin air, I got charged for bailiffs that demanded more than I had to offer and so they added more for that. When the bailiffs levied my goods, their words were that what I had wouldn't cover the fuel to get the van to collect it. Sorry to disappoint that there was no house full of wide-screen TVs and top of the range equipment that I'd squandered my money on for them to regain their debt.
I was just so fucking lazy though, I should have just pushed through the burst appendix that had me on the surgeons table and then needing 6 weeks off to recover because I worked in care, who on earth did I think I was needing time to recover from abdominal surgery whilst doing a physical job, that paid me SSP at a third of what I usually earned! And Christ, needing the basics like gas, electric and food while I recovered was just utter fecklessness.
Should have just whipped it out myself, sewn myself up and popped off for my next shift like a good little society skivvy.

People are responsible for their own life choices, where they live, how many children then have, what they spend on, how many hours they work etc. The government has no say in those things, they are down to the individual.

I worked full time at nmw and even the government recognised that it wasn't enough to survive on hence the benefits top up. I had one child, who I was able to support 50% of, but not 100%, the 'system' chose to allow the other half of the equation to walk away and they provided the shortfall instead, had he coughed up his half then I'd have not needed benefits.

And the talk about life choices about work, can I just ask you who do you think will work in childcare, social care, shops and restaurants etc if we all go and get a higher paid job tomorrow? Who will provide these services exactly that support society? It's a question I ask on threads like this and no one seems to want to answer.

If everyone in these jobs got a better paid job tomorrow, there's a load more who'll take their place and so what's been solved then? And where are all these better jobs going to come from? And if no one takes the poorer paid jobs what then? Who's going to meet the children at nursery in the morning, or be there to stop the elderly relative wandering round town in their underwear?

If these jobs paid enough to live on, then you'd have a point, but the fact is they don't. If they weren't essential jobs then you'd have a point, but they are.

Well said.

Most of my friends are quite well off. I'm not. I remember once my friend did a sponsored event for charity and I was under so much pressure to sponsor her...literally everyone she knew was donating and as her official best friend, it would have looked awful if I didn't. I begrudgingly gave £10. I remember thinking I could have our that towards my child's shoes they needed. What's the point in collecting for charity for random people you don't know at the expense of actual people you know who are struggling. Disclaimer...My friend is lovely and if I'd explained would have been fine...but who wants to do that.

@Iquitit well said

Well we are disgracefully privileged but we remain humble in nature and thought!

I acknowledge my privilege, but I hope it doesn't blind me to the reality that not everyone shares it. I hope fervently that my privilege doesn't stop me seeing hardship. When I see hardship, I try to help out. I realise I can't wave a magic wand and solve all the problems. But one person cannot change a whole second family's life in trhe UK.

In the developing world, yes, it is possible to give a gift that transforms a life. We became friendly with a young tuk tuk driver in Sri Lanka and his family and sent money annually, which paid school fees until the eldest child won a scholarship to secondary school. We bought dad a tuk tuk of his own (instead of him paying 65p daily to rent one and him earning 35p, so he earned £1 daily), and helped fund the rebuild of their house when it was washed away in a flood. The total value of our donations over a decade wasn't huge, but it went directly to the family we wanted to help. No admin costs. No intermediary taking a cut. It was a gift from one family to another. We've lost touch now, but we hope he has made it up to Sri Lankan middle class.

ComedyCook, you really shouldn't have felt obliged to do that but I understand keping some pride is often the highest price of poverty. The whole charity 'events' business is one big con. Being on Mumsnet as a poor person is an odd experience, odder even than not having a child. It reminds me of when I was a teenager, I joined the League Of Pity which was a junior branch of the NSPCC. They sent out a big golden papier mache egg to collect contributions and a newsletter with ideas for fundraising such as jumble sales. Well I was poor but not daft enough to imagine anyone would think it worth the price of admisssion to look at let alone buy the kind of clothes I could collect or pay me to walk 10 miles or whatever.
Long story short, I nicked some money from my brother and sent that.

Roses and Hellebores
...they have direct knowledge of the dealers with the big shiny watches and big shiny cars and get sucked in. And so serious organised crime continues.

There's a bit more to it than that tbh. Mine don't even get offers of trainers and Iphones anymore, it's offers to cover rent arrears and CT and 'what kind of a son watches his Ma struggle?'

The local money lenders are connected up to the gangs, but they're also connected up to the bailiffs and know exactly who is on a liability order. Throw in the local TA and her big mouth, and her big mouthed mother and a loose lipped councilor with a 'I helpz the poor' complex, and the powder keg is full.
The council don't give a stuff if that's how you have to pay them, and don't give a stuff that their front line services are information sieves and neither does the school, too busy protecting it's reputation.

A 16 yr old and a 19 yr old have recently lost their lives here, one shot, one stabbed, so everyone's moving up and recruiting is on full. My neighbors really upset that someone grassed up her 'Lil Soljer Bwoi' and 'the Feds' took his knife off him. Never crosses her mind they might just have saved his life by temporally knocking him down the running's for 'Freedom Day.' Tomorrow lots of nice middle class kids will be off their faces on cheap Ket, because apparently it's the drug de jour. Most of them wont be in danger, and few will connect two dead kids to their recreation.

Roses you may actually need to be humble to offset your 'disgraceful privilege' which I'm genuinely glad you have, btw.

But, I'm not humble either. I was once. Then I wised up to how the system really works. Being humble from where we are just keeps us down longer.
Learning to look at the king, and sit down and wash your backside, and look at him a little bit more, is the privilege of cats and those below a certain status. Humble never got a WC DC their big break. Being better than the competition and knowing how to demonstrate it, does.

EmeraldShamrock
Money makes money. Educated parents prioritise education, learned behaviour from family builds a foundation.

Totally, and when the uneducated parent dares to catch on and prioritises education, and refuses to play the 'poor parent game' or allow their kids on FSM or to ever see the inside of a benefit office or food bank, and starts building that as their children's foundation too, the great and the good get very uncomfortable and start insisting that's not right for us and we must subject our kids to 'charidee' and it won't in any way continue the cycle of deprivation. No Sireee, it's all fair and equitable and invisible and no local social capital your parent gained you, will be lost.

I want to make it clear that no judgement from me however anyone goes about surviving as long as you're not actively abusing your kids to do so. I have absolute respect for those who try to navigate the system, and for those who end up prostituting themselves to not, and all in between, but I'm done waiting for fairness, and I'm done listening to what a fair system it all is, and I'm done listening to the gatekeepers of education, and how it's always so much better than before and how all my kids have to do is work harder and harder and harder at any school, as the bright hard working child will thrive no mater what happens to them.

That's what generations of my family did and made no progress, until my mother just stopped coping and my ltd life chances went massively backwards. For a long time I honestly though I could work our way to some sort of equality, then I realized I didn't have enough years.

So again I'd like to know why on earth should I be humble? I'm not on any of societies income related benefits. (not that you should have to be humble if you are.)

Is it because 'good poor' are humble and accept "the rich man in his castle and the poor man at his gate, he made them high or lowly, and ordered their estate."
I grew up with that rammed home, God had chosen for me to live in abject poverty and to complain was to go against what God ordained. Humble acceptance and constant repentance for my existence was required. It's tosh designed to stop the poor from eating the rich!

People are responsible for their own life choices, where they live, how many children then have, what they spend on, how many hours they work etc. The government has no say in those things, they are down to the individual.

The government is responsible for legislation that waters down employment rights, meaning less job security, SSP which is a pitiful amount, NMW which is acknowledged not to be a living wage. They are responsible for allowing parents to walk away from their financial and moral responsibility for children they bring into the world. They are responsible for affordable social housing, for lining the pockets of private landlords. They are responsible for health services which mean unacceptable waiting times for essential health care which undermines someone’s ability to work, and for non-existent mental health services. They are responsible for decimating financial support to parents whose partner dies - often plunging the family into poverty.

Yes there may be life choices that people make which aren’t necessarily wise in hind sight but the infrastructure of a society which keeps people in poverty is absolutely the responsibility of the government and the people who vote them into power.

Yanbu I am very lucky to not truly understand or have experienced poverty. This doesn’t mean I’m a better person- my parents worked hard but were also fortunate to have the opportunities that they did.
I haven’t been lucky with my health but it was much easier with money.

I don’t think I’d ever really “get it” without being there long term. I can just try and be sensitive, but I’ll sometimes get it wrong.

What's it like up there on your high horse @TwinsandTrifle
Just because that was YOUR situation you have no right to judge others as you have no clue what they are going through.

Ceylon I'm genuinely shocked - I had no idea it was so interwoven like that. On one hand it's brilliantly sophisticated marketing to pull on the emotions like that (don't you want to help your mum) - otoh it's utterly, utterly repulsive so many work in tandem to exploit those most desperate.

@LegoCaltrops

We've been absolutely stony broke. More than once. Certainly couldn't have afforded botox. Can't afford a car, despite living in a town where there is a fairly basic bus service & we're 2 miles from the train station. And I'm disabled. And DH uses a stick to walk.

When I was on maternity leave our joint income was my maternity pay plus child benefit. We were approximately £150 a month short of being able to pay our rent & bills. Without even considering the question of food. DH had lost his job & because I was employed & technically on full time hours, he wasn't entitled to any jobseekers benefit. We weren't entitled to anything else for the same reason. I got to the limit of my overdraft before my maternity leave ended, the rent bounced & I had to borrow the money. Lied to the bank about my return to work date so I could get a loan in order to pay the rent. Took a year to pay it back. 4 years to pay off the credit card we'd been using to pay for food, I did manage to switch it to 0% after I returned to work so it wasn't accruing further interest. DH lost weight as he didn't eat properly most days, we often went to the supermarket just before closing & if there was stuff knocked down to 10p, we got that - bread, vegetables etc, occasionally meat or tins. Sometimes there wasn't anything. He made me eat more as I was BFing DD. But we couldn't really afford food & had to go to the food bank which is run by the CAB here. They usually give 3 days of food but it was Christmas & they sent us home with a massive bag & another enormous box of food, enough for absolutely weeks because they couldn't believe how completely screwed we were financially. We just weren't entitled to any help at all.

We were homeless last year. Our LL sold our house. No-one would touch us, due to not having 2 incomes. DH was working FT at the time.

DH hasn't had new clothes in years, except for shoes. Occasionally his parents turn up with something they've found at a car boot sale. Sometimes it fits. His 1 jacket he wears for work & job interviews came from a charity shop for about £5 & I repaired the ripped lining.

I think many people think there are cutbacks to be made. If you've already cut everything back to the bone, there's nothing left.

Sorry that happened to you

Hope things are better now. Same thing happened to me (LL selling house) did you manage to get social housing?

But the life choice to work in low paid jobs directly supports other people’s life choices to work in better paid jobs. Like to see all these high earners rush off to their very important jobs with nobody at nursery to look after their children all day, nobody to sweep the streets they walk in or clean their offices.

Everyone is important in the running of the world, those in low paid jobs are also pulling their weight, working extremely hard. Their work just isn’t valued as highly despite being just as important.

@Celyon, I don't think any MC parent is going to resent you for the stand you take. More like they will actively try to help out. (at least, I would) I would be proud to know you.

@TwinsandTrifle

Your rent would have to be paid out of the universal credit. There is no separate housing benefit payment. Or do you mean you'd have £1,373 left after you'd paid the rent?

After I'd paid the rent.

And OP how dare you insult me that I'm some "wind up" because I'm a qualified accountant who has seen enough bad money management and people making excuses that I know it is predominantly not the benefits that are the problem.

You dont like thats the fact of the matter, not my issue. Thank you.

You must have had an incredibly low rent then. The benefit cap is £1,666.68 a month, so to have £1,373 left after paying rent your rent, the rent must have been less than than £293.68 a month..

Unless someone in your household qualfies for PIP/DLA, or is a carer, or earns more than £617 a month, in which case the benefit cap does not apply.

@melj1213

and the reality is the vast majority of the UK either earn enough or obtain enough from benefits to manage, eg affording food/housing/utilities for their families and a few treats

The thing is that "managing" is exhausting. "Managing" 24/7 with no end in sight is soul destroying.

Yes I have secure housing and a job that just pays for everything but I hate that for that to happen, I have to constantly be thinking about money and budgets etc. Its stressful and never ending.

I would love to be spontaneous and treat DD to a random day out at the cinema and not have to worry about the cost when she also wants popcorn but I can't because I have to carefully budget for everything. Even on treats I have to look at where I can cut costs - I remember once taking DD to a cheap event and, knowing that food and drink inside would be expensive I packed a picnic to save money ... when we got to the venue there was a limit to the size of drinks bottles (I think it was something like 500ml limit) which I hadn't realised and so my 2l bottle of water was confiscated. As we planned to be there all day it was out of the question to not drink all day but I ended up having to pay £6 for two 500ml bottles of water which then ate into the budget I had allowed for the day and so DD couldn't do as many activities as she wanted as I couldn't afford them. If I had known about the bottle restrictions I could have bought two 500ml bottles of water for £1 at the corner shop on the way and DD could have done more activities. For many people £6 would be inconvenient but it wouldn't change the entire day out, whereas for some that "treat" they have managed to budget for has just cost them even more money

I've always done that tbh. Why would I want to pay rip off prices at the cinema. Took drinks and snacks with us.

Yes that is annoying about the cost of the drinks

@icecolddrinks

But perhaps the non pride diet sticks in the throat too much.

Children should not have to suffer for their parents' pride.

I think people who hold views like Twins are scared to consider another narrative.

They believe they are where they are by hard work, effort and skill. Some of which is true, but neglect to acknowledge the privilege of what gave them their foothold in the first place.

It's safer to point the finger and blame people rather than acknowledge the poverty trap is real. That it could happen to your children if they lose their net. Which can happen for a myriad of reasons.

It reminds me a bit of the American Dream, where anyone can apparently make it but the reality is few do. Rich stay rich and accumulate assets, maximizing tax not paid and efficiencies and the poor stay poor living hand to mouth and unable to accumulate. We admire the rich, their hard work, luck abd judgement - they spend money they can afford even if strictly speaking they didn't earn it.

And it's the poor we accuse of being greedy with the myth of their spendthrift ways on phones and Next. Because that is easier to believe. Life isn't fair, I get that - but let's not pretend it's within everyone's gift to do something about it.

OK maybe that was a bad analogy to use but the key point which was that basically, when my DD says "Mum, can I have this?" to a perfectly normal thing as a treat (sweets or a magazine at the supermarket, an ice cream at the park etc) I wish my first thought was "Of course, it's only £2" rather than "Do I have £2 spare in the budget?" especially when 90% of the time the answer is no, or at least not without sacrificing something else.

It's exhausting and soul destroying to constantly have to say no.

That was in response to @woodhill BTW

No I understand 😀

Must b difficult

@melj1213

OK maybe that was a bad analogy to use but the key point which was that basically, when my DD says "Mum, can I have this?" to a perfectly normal thing as a treat (sweets or a magazine at the supermarket, an ice cream at the park etc) I wish my first thought was "Of course, it's only £2" rather than "Do I have £2 spare in the budget?" especially when 90% of the time the answer is no, or at least not without sacrificing something else.

It's exhausting and soul destroying to constantly have to say no.

Yet many on here would say that saying no to magazines isn't true poverty because enough can afford to eat

It's safer to point the finger and blame people rather than acknowledge the poverty trap is real. That it could happen to your children if they lose their net

It's true. On paper, I should have been successful. Top of the class without trying. Educated, well off, middle class parents. Private education. Then my parents died when I was pretty young....It caused me to "lose my net", meant I had terrible anxiety, made endless dreadful decisions, had no one to turn to for advice or support, left me with very little family so settled down quite young. I haven't achieved anything really and I had so much potential.