To think most of MN don’t know what having no money means

[icecolddrinks]

And that admitting to having none is humiliating.

I see it here all the time. Someone has no money. Someone suggests something to make life easier. The person says again they have no money. MN suggest a cheaper version.

On the thread about dress up so many people were saying to tell the school.

I know debt and low incomes aren’t ideal but they aren’t uncommon either so why is it so hard to acknowledge that someone might have 3p in their bank account and no money?

icecolddrinks I rather suspect a touch of disingenuity. Certainly a deliberate attempt to misconstrue. I am not sure putting words that aren't said into someone's mouth is a particularly endearing trait. Did I ever suggest it was 'the majority'? Did I ever suggest it was not at the extreme end of poverty? No, clearly not.

You laughed at comments about poverty and children living in temporary accommodation, suggesting I was living in the past for even thinking it happened. That was both unnecessary and inaccurate about poverty today. Now, like Johnson, you are backpeddling very fast - its about the numbers now, not the very suggestion it still happens.

My initial comment was around most reasonable teachers not expecting presents from children living in dire circumstances. I can't think of any teacher thinking less of a parent or child because they couldn't afford a a box of milk tray. I think most teachers tend to work the other way around and find ways to feed the very poorest children they work with, or ensure they have the right equipment and clothes. The point being nobody should feel bad for not handing over an end of term gift, far better the family eats.

[quote Soberanne]@IceCreamAndCandyfloss whose responsibility is it to ensure that people receive a decent wage for doing a decent job. Until we end in work Poverty people are always going to be relying on benefits and food banks.[/quote]
We have a minimum wage in place and there are plenty of jobs that pay higher than that.
Many manage on their wage with no help as make choices within their budget. It’s not upto employers to pay more as people want children, want to live in a certain area, want to work part time or have a non working parter, buy x, y and z etc.

This thread was about people with no money and people not understanding that.

Teacher gifts came up as an example.

You relied with a post about children living in b and bs not being expected to gift teachers.

I was not the only one confused by it. As you saw I thought you were referring to another thread.

There are children in poverty in b and bs, on sofas in someone else’s house, in terraced houses, semis on the outskirts of town, apartments, flats.

That’s why I was confused by your comment and why I laughed as it seemed so random.

If the working wage covered normal everyday living expenses then why do working people still have to claim tax credits.
Like i said earlier i work full time, have no debt and can assure you, ilive within my means but i still need to claim benefits that i dont want to claim. As stated earlier if everyone left these low paid jobs then who would be providing child care or looking after our elderly and disabled.

Of course its up to employers to pay a decent wage to their staff.

@Soberanne

Of course its up to employers to pay a decent wage to their staff.

It is. It's also up to all of us as consumers of goods and services to factor that in when purchasing things. But most of us arent so keen on that.

Money makes money. Educated parents prioritise education, learned behaviour from family builds a foundation. People are responsible for their own life choices, where they live, how many children then have, what they spend on, how many hours they work etc. Ultimately yes however it is naive to believe everyone has similar choices to enable these decisions.

It is. It's also up to all of us as consumers of goods and services to factor that in when purchasing things. But most of us arent so keen on that

Because many of us are not paid decent wages to be able to afford higher prices.

It doesn’t excuse paying people shit wages though.
Do you think that there’s an infinite pool of money? Or it’s finite? It’s the latter and that’s why we have a problem with a handful of rich people sucking up wealth to themselves at the expense of the rest of us.

No one needs a thousand million pounds.

Some people have genuinely zero experience with it. Someone on here started a thread about the fact their friend has no money at all a week before payday and they just couldn’t believe anyone lives like that. Yet that’s a normal reality for millions of people.

I’ve been broke in the past. So broke I had to calculate how much everything cost in the supermarket as I added it to my basket because I knew I’d have to put things back at the checkout if not and I wanted to avoid the humiliation. Also lived for a couple of days without gas because I’d used the emergency on the meter and couldn’t afford to top enough to pay for both the emergency and a some credit on there too iykwim.

It’s totally shit being flat broke but normal for many, many people.

I agree with TheQueef - life choices are framed by individual's experiences. If a young person is on a sink estate in inner London, they don't have direct knowledge of chartered accountants and academics, they have direct knowledge of the dealers with the big shiny watches and big shiny cars and get sucked in. And so serious organised crime continues.

I got my first City job at 21 because I met a senior chap from a bank whilst spending a weekend with a boyfriend at his parents house in Cornwall and I was looking for a job. I got invited because the crowd I was mixing with all went to similar schools, uni's, and everyone had a mate who knew someone else or one of their siblings or flatmates.

My aspirations were pretty simple, get a nice job, buy a flat, have a good time, meet a nice husband who would look after me. All part of my horizon because my upbringing meant I mixed with trainee accountants, stockbrokers, etc. and many of us looked out for each other. I can't remember anyone dating a total stranger and it would have been hard for outsiders to break in.

Well said, Roses.

The people saying it's all down to life choices: what choices do you expect a homeless teenager who wasn't allowed to sit GCSEs to make? Or a severely disabled or terminally ill person who's part of the 50% whose disability benefit claims are rejected?

It's comforting to pretend all those feckless poor people are poor because they waste cash on flatscreens and trainers, but the reality is there are plenty of people living in poverty who think buying a Kit Kat once a week is really pushing the boat out spending-wise.

Unless you come from wealth and privilege (and maybe not even then), many people are only one disaster away from losing everything.

In some ways it makes you appreciate things more and become more empathetic.
I have given a random person €5 on a few occasions. I hate seeing people put food back in the supermarket.
It happened me once with cupcakes I didn't really want, I told DD we were putting them back and a builder paid for them.
I wasn't skint my wage was due in that day.

I understand it very well and I think a lot of posters do. Mumsnet has a good cross section of society from poverty to comparatively well off.

It's easy for me to comprehend because I was very hard up when young and appreciate not being so now.

I remember having 35p in my purse a couple of days before pay day and husband and I not answering the door or phone in case it was someone after money we owed.

We climbed out of it eventually but it was very stressful for quite a long time.

I'd always (discreetly, preferably anonymously) give someone a helping hand if needed and my children will never be in that position.

@TwinsandTrifle

I'm funnily enough also a qualified accountant though you don't really need to be to work a benefits calculator. I just ran one to check if we were both unemployed; 2 adults, 1 child. After rent costs we would have £660.58 to pay for all bills, food, transport to look for jobs etc. I'm not saying it's impossible but it certainly wouldn't be easy.

Claiming as a couple is far less than two individual claims as you well know. And your rent must be very high. Which I assume it is, with you both employed and you're on a qualified wage. You'd obviously need to relocate to a house within your means. But you know that too, instead of trying to apply a benefit calc to the cost of an expensive property occupied by a couple with two wages, one, a high professional salary.

Of course claiming as a couple is less than two individual claims, but what is the relevance of this? Any family that live together would have to make a joint claim.

Rent is a bit of a red herring in this case due to LHA - I have been on benefits by the way and known many others who are so I’m not talking from a point of complete ignorance here - rentals that are within the LHA amount for an area are like gold dust, and where, in other circumstances, the solution may be to move to a cheaper area, this does not work under the LHA system as a cheaper area will have a lower LHA and the problem remains (not to mention the difficulty of moving costs and finding a property that will accept benefits).

No, our rent is not “very high” - it is above the LHA in the area yes, but you would be hard-pressed to find a property that isn’t.

Another completely pointless threads relating to poverty.

Are there people who do find themselves with only 50p wondering how they are going to get electricity because of unexpected life circumstances? Yes, sadly definitely.

Are there people who claim poverty who are so because they don't know how to budget, or don't care to do so because they can't stop spending the money they have on non essential. Yes, definitely.

Some posters will respond as if the entire group of people suffering poverty fall in the second category. Others will defend the fact that only the first group exist and act all offended if the second is mentioned.

It is all so pointless because the system doesn't allow to separate the first group from the second. So some will suffer through no fault of theirs at all whilst others will continue to live spending badly and expecting sympathy for the outcome.

I've know people in both groups. The first tend to be very humble, and usually make it out of poverty at some point. The second are often entitled and too often remain in the same cycle of poverty.

vivainsomnia Nailed it. Agree with everything you’ve said.

@livingwitheds1984 I agree. And I also think that if a person has fa and really struggles then a big telly and 20 fags make a hard life better. Not everyone has super duper cultural things to look forward to and if a single mum lives on the 8th floor and has no money then of course computer games on a device are a reasonable option when there are no holidays, no cricket clubs, no swimming parties to look forward to but a mother's intention is keep them entertained and off county lines.

I may not have experienced poverty but I hope I know when to check my privilege.

I have had no money, had to borrow from family to buy bread and top up the electric meter. I sometimes feel on here that many posters can’t comprehend that. Now my children are adults we are much better off, not rich, average salaries but it’s surprising how much kids cost you (school lunches, trips, dress up days, discos etc). I actually have savings now and if we want to book a weekend away or have a meal out it’s not an issue, I do remember how hard it was before though (and the kids still cost me on occasion - but I can afford it

It really disturbs me that posters are so desperate to promote this binary and divisive way of thinking, where all poor people neatly divide into "Good Poors" (willing to live on bread and water and work the shitty jobs no one else wants to do) and "Bad Poors" (feckless, lazy good for nothings who are so entitled as to want the occasional nice thing, or to pursue a good career).

Plenty of people are inbetween. And not knowing how to budget does not mean you are "entitled" or that you're blowing loads of dosh on luxuries.

I was dumped in a bedsit completely alone at the age of 17 and left to get on with it with zero support or help. I lived pretty frugally but yes occasionally I'd splash out on a CD or a book or a nice dessert because it made life just that tiniest bit more bearable. I also made mistakes with money because no one had ever taught me basic things like the fact different energy rates exist and that you can shop around with energy companies to find a cheaper deal. I didn't know that, I thought everyone in the UK was with British Gas and that electricity and gas was just one standard price for everyone. How would you even know that as a kid unless you'd been told? Those kinds of money mistakes are due to not having educational privilege.

Someone on here started a thread about the fact their friend has no money at all a week before payday and they just couldn’t believe anyone lives like that. Yet that’s a normal reality for millions of people.

I don't think it's a normal reality for millions of adults. It impacts more people because of course there are children reliant on some adults who have no money. But I think there are far more people in the UK living comfortably than there are people genuinely choosing between eating and heating.

Of course there is real, abject poverty out there. But luckily in the UK, being in that position long term is rare.

It could mean I'm down to the last £500 in my current account and I don't want to break into my savings

😂 no, it really doesn't mean that.

Vivainsomnia

Exactly. We can't pretend either category doesnt exist. Both are real and many people will be somewhere between the two.

I'm poor because I have massive debts" means you've chosen to borrow beyond your means, and need debt management

Nope. My biggest debt was council tax, with hundreds added on when I couldn't pay 2 months installments so they then made the whole thing payable, and when I couldn't miraculously pull that amount out of thin air, I got charged for bailiffs that demanded more than I had to offer and so they added more for that. When the bailiffs levied my goods, their words were that what I had wouldn't cover the fuel to get the van to collect it. Sorry to disappoint that there was no house full of wide-screen TVs and top of the range equipment that I'd squandered my money on for them to regain their debt.
I was just so fucking lazy though, I should have just pushed through the burst appendix that had me on the surgeons table and then needing 6 weeks off to recover because I worked in care, who on earth did I think I was needing time to recover from abdominal surgery whilst doing a physical job, that paid me SSP at a third of what I usually earned! And Christ, needing the basics like gas, electric and food while I recovered was just utter fecklessness.
Should have just whipped it out myself, sewn myself up and popped off for my next shift like a good little society skivvy.

People are responsible for their own life choices, where they live, how many children then have, what they spend on, how many hours they work etc. The government has no say in those things, they are down to the individual.

I worked full time at nmw and even the government recognised that it wasn't enough to survive on hence the benefits top up. I had one child, who I was able to support 50% of, but not 100%, the 'system' chose to allow the other half of the equation to walk away and they provided the shortfall instead, had he coughed up his half then I'd have not needed benefits.

And the talk about life choices about work, can I just ask you who do you think will work in childcare, social care, shops and restaurants etc if we all go and get a higher paid job tomorrow? Who will provide these services exactly that support society? It's a question I ask on threads like this and no one seems to want to answer.

If everyone in these jobs got a better paid job tomorrow, there's a load more who'll take their place and so what's been solved then? And where are all these better jobs going to come from? And if no one takes the poorer paid jobs what then? Who's going to meet the children at nursery in the morning, or be there to stop the elderly relative wandering round town in their underwear?

If these jobs paid enough to live on, then you'd have a point, but the fact is they don't. If they weren't essential jobs then you'd have a point, but they are.

Do you know what I love and appreciate it's incredibly privileged. I can take dd for coffee, a lunch, buy her a winter coat, whenever I like. It's lovely. It's not because we are entirely sensible but because we were privileged in the first place to be able to make the right decisions.

Oh and how could I overlook "humble"!

Yes, God forbid us awful oiks be anything but HUMBLE! We must know our place at all times, mustn't we??

Well sorry but I am NOT humble. I was earning an extremely good living until the pandemic hit, and living a very luxurious jet-setting life. I'm extremely proud of everything I've accomplished and I don't know why I shouldn't enjoy it and spend my money. I'm not going to be put in my place just because I came from extreme poverty, and the only reason I was able to overcome that background is frankly because I was very arrogant and "entitled" (arrogant in the sense I knew I was very clever and capable of being a high achiever, and entitled in the sense I believed I deserved to have a good job and earn lots of money just as much as posh people). If I'd been some forelock-tugging ever so 'umble good little poor I never ever would have had the right mentality to succeed.

"Humble" is just another word for "know your place."

"Humble" can get in the fucking bin.