To think they should separate girls and boys on sports day

[EmergencyHaribo]

I wasn't sure if I should post this in feminism but I sort of wanted everyones opinions. I've NC.

DS (6) came home from his sports day today and was really excited that he'd won an event and mentioned some of his friends (all boys) who had also won events. We celebrated all of their achievements then I asked if any of his girl friends had won anything. He said it was only boys who had won events and that it was because the girls weren't strong enough.

I was horrified at this as I've never brought him up to think anything like this and challenged him. He said that that's what the girls were saying amongst themselves after the events were finished.

This made me so sad. I hate to think that girls feel this way about themselves. I know some people believe that 6 year olds are physically the same despite their sex and that it is down to socialisation; boys being encouraged to be physical and girls being encouraged into less physical pursuits, but I sort of feel this is irrelevant at this stage, because now they are seeing evidence that 'boys are stronger'.

AIBU to think that it makes sense to separate them by sex for the events so there was a boy winner and girl winner for each event? And each could be celebrated for their strength?

'My point about wearing summer dresses at school is not about the fact that girls don't wear trousers or shorts, she wears shorts frequently but she doesn't like them for the hot weather at school and finds the cotton dress arier(?). Her T bars are quite solid and robust and have a good grip. She likes the way they look and again finds the t bar cooler than the hot trainer. She has solid sandals that she wears all the time at the moment. I don't know, I just think I'm reluctant to 'tell her' what she finds the most comfortable. She values prettiness of things she wears, so what, I think it's important to value a 10 year old's opinion and they need to be respected for that.'

I agree totally. As someone who came in from the school run and immediately changed from jeans into a cotton dress I definitely agree with her that they are more comfortable and practical in this heat especially!

If a girl is comfortable in a summer dress and t bar shoes then they shouldn't stop her running, jumping, and playing games though. So, no problem keeping up with or competing against boys the same age and size. It would only be a concern if her clothing restricted how she moved, for example, if she couldn't run in school shoes like she could in trainers, or if she was worried about showing her underwear in a dress.

@334bu

www.usatf.org/resources/statistics/records/championship-meet-records/usatf-national-junior-olympic-track-field-champion Obviously these are only the performances of the very best and although sport is very important in US schools I can accept that girls might be less encouraged. As to not competing as well because they are only competing against girls, perhaps in races they might not have to push as hard but doesn't apply to throwing and jumping events surely?

It applies to everything unfortunately. You only need to work hard enough to beat the girls field, no insensitive to work even harder once you succeeded in that. Beating these records by tiny increments is hard work as is...Once you succeeded and broken the girls record would you continue. training like mad to beat your own, or would you take it easy to avoid injuries until the next season? This is another reason to not segregate by sex until and if you have to.

By the way this is the same reason each generation set new records. How do you think our generation can produce faster swimmers, runners, etc than the previous one? It is simply because there is incentive to beat existing records and because the talent pool became much more diverse, and this is no longer just well to do white people who are doing those sports...

This is another reason to not segregate by sex until and if you have to.

So you would you only separate them when they reach secondary school?

@BFrazzled... I would love to see some of the analysis you talk of which show there is no statistical differences between prepubescent boys and prepubescent girls.. the other links posted on here suggest otherwise..

'In terms of gender differences in motor performance, the results confirm those of other studies that report the superiority of boys in tests of aerobic fitness and muscular strength and of girls in tests of balance and flexibility.

The boys presented higher values in all selected tests, except tests of balance and flexibility, in which girls scored better. and. in prepubescent children, one cannot neglect the influence of genetic determinism, observed from the morphoconstitutional point of view.'

from: www.researchgate.net/publication/224914505_Physical_Fitness_Differences_Between_Prepubescent_Boys_and_Girls.

(It talks about gender differences.. I wonder at what stage we will have to go back and clarify that these were sex differences..)

'Girls compared to boys had less favourable individual attributes associated with Pysical Activity at age 8 years, including 18% lower cardio-respiratory fitness (3.5 vs 4.2, p

@ChateauMargaux the problem with such studies is that they pick two groups (boys and girls in that case) and find some small differences. They don’t tell us of the differences are due to biology, nurture or simply chance. Therefore it is hard to reach a conclusion. Let me give you another example: lots of studies show various performance differences between younger and older children born in the same year - should we separate between them as well? Should we separate between children based on household income of parents? Because I assure you there will be differences in athletic performance in these populations and it is borne by scientific studies.

Instead of googling an opposing study for you let me just tell you of a different way to see this: There are two populations with a spread or spectra of athletic abilities and these spreads intersect. Rather than preventing them to interact with each other in an artificial way, let them mix so that children with similar abilities could compete with each other. This what mixing boys and girls achieves.
I am all for girls only teams by the way, if they increase girls participation! Just not ONLY girls only teams.

@334bu I don’t think there is a one-fit-all solution. Probably should be a mixture of mixed and girls only activities/teams because of the way girls are socialized. I see for example that having a girls only football team allows girls who never played until say age of 8 to start playing football whereas mixed teams for this age usually have players who practiced for a few years (and of course it’s mostly boys) and very small amount of free places. So it is great that single sex teams exist. I am however against forced separation in a school sports event.

@BeFrazzled.. neither of the articles quoted suggest that the differences are wholly biological but they both state that the 'nurture' factors CANNOT be ignored.

You have repeatedly stated that there are no biological difference at this age, I would love to see some research on this.. I have seen some performance comparison of US based swimmers.

You state up thread that there is no difference between in the muscle mass of boys and girls of the same weight.. this studies states otherwise.. www.researchgate.net/publication/285014099_Gender_Differences_in_Body_Composition_from_Childhood_to_Old_Age_An_Evolutionary_Point_of_View

I accept that I do not have access to bigger, better research that supports your point, I would love to see it, please do share!!

And while you insist, without sharing the evidence, that there are no biological reasons to segregate by sex, do you not see that there is long term harm to the levels of participation of girls in sport by failing to give them opportunities to compete on a field where they can win.

Your most recent post is the first one of yours, where you have suggested mixed sex groups segregated by ability, as opposed to simply mixed sex, and I do agree that such an approach could indeed be beneficial.

I agree that in theory mixing sexes and grouping instead by ability will allow the stronger girls to compete against their athletic peers and I do think there is great benefit to both sexes of having mixed sports.

Your previous posts have insisted that there is no reason to segregate by sex, but on the face of that argument, girls would, for the most part (baring the few exceptional ones), never win and that has a detrimental affect on how many girls continue to participate in sport and exercise, it is not the only factor and none of these factors should be considered in isolation.

As well as ensuring the most effective playing field for the top performing girls, we also have to consider the whole girl population.

I am however against forced separation in a school sports event.

In secondary schools you will have student athletes who are adult males. Given that any student who has undergone male puberty will have a huge physical advantage over the female student athletes, surely you are not expecting the female athletes to compete against the male athletes?

I think she means primary, she has said that before (and she is a she, she has said so further up the thread)

I think she means primary,

No she was answering my question
^So you would you only separate them when they reach secondary school?^

Here you go - one such study with good explanation of possible caveats:
theconversation.com/when-it-comes-to-sport-boys-play-like-a-girl-80328

With that let me excuse myself from the conversation - I think this link has a good accessible summary of the research on this topic (which was athletic performance in primary school - I have no idea how we started talking about secondary?)

I have no idea how we started talking about secondary?)

Because I asked you, if you would only separate the sexes in secondary ,when students would have gone through puberty.

@Uramaki

They don't shove all the olympic athletes in one group so there's obviously a difference so yes, they should be seperate.

Have you seen the competitors for Tokyo?

@MrsTulipTattsyrup

When I was in a village primary school (in the 70s) our year groups were so small (about 8-10 in each!) that we all competed in year groups in each race, boys and girls together. As I recall, most races were won by girls. (Speaking as the undefeated egg and spoon champion for four years in a row, consistently second in the sack race, and female).

Have things really changed so much in terms of physical capability that sexual differences are now apparent in such small children? Or has society changed (gone backwards) and is it now less acceptable for girls to get messy, sweaty, dirty, and therefore they don’t go at it with such gusto? Certainly none of us were obsessed with pink, frills, fucking unicorns and glitter - we played on go karts, made bows and arrows, biked, played Lego, all with boys and girls together. Until I was about 11, my clothes and my brother’s were pretty much indistinguishable, apart from the couple of dresses I owned.

Egg & spoon and sack race events aren't like straightforward races though. They're more about balance and technique rather than sheer muscle.

Thank you @BeFrazzled.. the article does indeed show that the differences between males and females increase significantly after the age if 12. Shame the details are behind a paywall as it would make interesting reading.

Yes, the difference after 12 is incredible, though given that the USA Women's World Cup winners were beaten by an under 15 boys team and there are hundreds of schoolboys each year beating the times of the best of the best female adult runners it should not be a surprise.

That chart is really interesting, so thanks for posting that article Befrazzled. it makes it clear that female athletes in their twenties would only be able to compete with 50 + year old males, any younger and they'd be blown out of the park.

The differences post-puberty are indisputable...

It doesn't mean that there are differences before puberty.

That is the point of this article.