To think they should separate girls and boys on sports day

[EmergencyHaribo]

I wasn't sure if I should post this in feminism but I sort of wanted everyones opinions. I've NC.

DS (6) came home from his sports day today and was really excited that he'd won an event and mentioned some of his friends (all boys) who had also won events. We celebrated all of their achievements then I asked if any of his girl friends had won anything. He said it was only boys who had won events and that it was because the girls weren't strong enough.

I was horrified at this as I've never brought him up to think anything like this and challenged him. He said that that's what the girls were saying amongst themselves after the events were finished.

This made me so sad. I hate to think that girls feel this way about themselves. I know some people believe that 6 year olds are physically the same despite their sex and that it is down to socialisation; boys being encouraged to be physical and girls being encouraged into less physical pursuits, but I sort of feel this is irrelevant at this stage, because now they are seeing evidence that 'boys are stronger'.

AIBU to think that it makes sense to separate them by sex for the events so there was a boy winner and girl winner for each event? And each could be celebrated for their strength?

My two girls and one boy won pretty much everything at primary school sports days, which weren’t segregated.

I walked past our local primary school the other day and the kids were playing football - mixed. They looked about 9 or 10. I was really impressed as the girls were just as strong and skilled as the boys and the boys were passing the ball. In my experience of mixed sports, that rarely happens.

hahaha

the tallest (and fastest) kids in my kids classes are girls.

If the school decides to separate boys and girls, it will give the boys a chance to win, I am sure they'll be happy with that.

But loving the sexist rubbish about "academy, dance and pottery" being a girl's field. As a "girly girl" who has chosen boxing and martial arts as a hobby, I would be so tempted to tell you to fuck up with your stereotypes, but that wouldn't not be very suitable for a lady, would it.

To add:

I don't advocate mix-gender boxing matches, but we are talking about primary school kids.. from 5 to 10 years old roughly!

Girls and women have routinely worn trousers for decades, I don't think they are masculine clothing anymore. Nothing wrong with dresses though, many sportswomen wear dresses, just not party dresses with sandals.

He told me he didn't like fighting the girls as he might hurt them.
And what did you answer?
This is highly unlikely he would hurt someone who weights the same as him. The whole reason he was sparring with girls was so that no one gets hurt.
I mean, I don't know how to put it politely - this assumption that he will hurt the girl who weights the same as him is just sexist. If I heard it from my son we would have a long conversation about how you cannot hurt someone just by the virtue of having a penis...

It's primary school not the olympics.... my daughter is in reception, they had them in mixed ability teams.... she is incredibly sporty (no idea where she gets it from, because i'm an actual potato) but her team didn't win (think she said she won 2 races) it doesn't matter, it's the taking part that counts and not everyone can win all the time.

btw, as person who earns her livelihood by utilising statistics, I find that there is a a lot of misunderstanding around these concept of "average" and "maximal", etc. When we look at performance by athletes, no matter if it is in Olympics or simply in county level competitions and see that highly trained males outperform highly trained females this tells us absolutely nothing about the spread of abilities between genders in a local primary school (nevermind even that we are talking about completely different age group!). In reality there is a spectrum of abilities for each gender and these spectrums have a big intersection...

these spectra. not spectrums :)

And what did you answer? This is highly unlikely he would hurt someone who weights the same as him. The whole reason he was sparring with girls was so that no one gets hurt.
If he had been sparring with a boy the same size, there would have been no problem.
My experience must be very different from yours, but I can assure you he could have hurt the girls. Most boys, in my experience ,who are of a similar size and weight to girls are stronger than the girls. Obviously the difference is not so extreme pre puberty but it is still there.

Our school doesn't individual competitive sports day any more. Its all in houses. Every single game is a team game.

It wasn't always that way - when my eldest was at the same primary we discovered that he was a champion racer in the 'Crawl backwards like a crab' competition. Which is nice. And in my mental folder for 'photos to haul out when he's 18'

@334bu
Well, yes - my experience is indeed different. In particular, I perceive this belief that boys are somehow innately stronger than girls as sexist. This belief is not corroborated by any evidence except your own experience, there is no material reason to back it up (i.e. boys and girls at this age have statistically same muscle mass if of same weight) and yet you continue to hold it.
It is absolutely the same as saying that boys are innately better at maths or chess. How would you react if your son told you that he no longer wants to go to the same chess club as girls because he is afraid he will always win and hurt their feelings (and given your "experiences" girls feelings are much easier hurt than boys)?

Given your beliefs, which you probably transferred to your son, I suspect he is just ashamed to spare with girls who he sees as weak...A shame for all involved.

Just adding this to be fair - perhaps girls seem "weaker" to you because of their attitude. Most girls are not raised to be as tough as boys and definitely not in a physical confrontation. Speaking generally, in a physical confrontation, attitude (i.e. being ready to hit and to be hit) is perhaps even more important than weight. But in the situation you describe it is presumably a controlled environment where both boys and girls have been training for some time, so this should not be an issue.

This belief is not corroborated by any evidence except your own experience, there is no material reason to back it up (i.e. boys and girls at this age have statistically same muscle mass if of same weight) and yet you continue to hold it.

So why in USA athletic statistics are all the girls' records topped by the boys. Is it just in the USA that boys can run, jump and throw better than girls?

Coming from a long line of tough working class women I do not see women and girls being " weaker" in any sense other than the physical and even then some of my aunts would have had a go. You can also be reassured that my son has reached adulthood totally convinced that women are the intellectual peers of men. However, he has always been very aware of his own strength and when he told me he was afraid to hurt the girls I believed him, silly me.

@334bu those statistics are for older children. The situation does indeed change once puberty kicks in.

@NowtSalamander

I felt this too when I saw my daughter’s report today which had her as “age appropriate” for PE. She’s really sporty; the best girl at sports in her class. But there are about 6 boys who can outperform her. The differences aren’t huge until puberty but they do still count at primary level. Not sure what we can do though - eg girls consistently outperform boys in reading and most academic subjects

Assuming in England and at a school following the National Curriculum. There is no exceeding for PE-so age appropriate is accurate.

Statistics range from 8 and under group to under 18s.

@334bu regarding such statistics (no idea what precisely you mean as I don’t see you have provided a link) - I am a mathematician who works with data using statistics every day so for once feel qualified to comment: basically this is flawed data. This is because much less girls than boys participate in sports and these girl record setters are drawn from much smaller talent pool. Also since these kids don’t compete against each over (because of separation by sex) it is impossible to compare the records. To win a girl needs to only be better than other girls. It is same as women marathon records with and without male pacers.

I see where you're coming from.in one respect...but it sounds like just a bit of bad luck that all the boys outperformed the girls that day. At age 6 normally the outcomes wouldn't be so clear cut as that.
I think to an extent, teachers need to make sure that relay teams etc are balanced, and generally try and do relays rather than individual 'this kid is the champion/fastest of all!' type events.
But I do think sex segregation at that age is a bit like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. As explained above, there are lots of ways to make kids sports days more equal. If it were set segregated at that age, I would definitely have gotten the message that I wasn't considered 'good enough to compete against against same boys I was playing stuck in the mud with hours earlier, and probably would have been much more inclined to conforming to gender stereotypes. 6 year old unfortunately don't always get the nuance of why sports would be segregated and would likely still understand it as 'boys are stronger. At least when mixed, or in teams, there is a high chance a lot of the girls would win at that age

Not six year olds but Primary Year 6.

@RealBecca

Might have been better to split into groups and allocate points to individual 1st/2nd/3rd places and then have an overall wonnong team made up of mixed sexs and abilities rather than amaking it about individual wins

Agree with this completely. I think the OP's heart is in the right place, but sex segregating will only make it worse. Ultimately kids sports days should be treated as fun with some healthy competition and not a mini microcosm of the Olympics!!

www.usatf.org/resources/statistics/records/championship-meet-records/usatf-national-junior-olympic-track-field-champion
Obviously these are only the performances of the very best and although sport is very important in US schools I can accept that girls might be less encouraged. As to not competing as well because they are only competing against girls, perhaps in races they might not have to push as hard but doesn't apply to throwing and jumping events surely?

On a personal level, winning as an individual at a running race has really boosted my DD's self esteem! She is superb at drawing and generally Art but in P.e lessons has never been particularly noticed for how fast she is so she was really pleased. However, she is 10 not 6 so maybe the individual competition is a bit harsh on little ones.

My point about wearing summer dresses at school is not about the fact that girls don't wear trousers or shorts, she wears shorts frequently but she doesn't like them for the hot weather at school and finds the cotton dress arier(?). Her T bars are quite solid and robust and have a good grip. She likes the way they look and again finds the t bar cooler than the hot trainer. She has solid sandals that she wears all the time at the moment. I don't know, I just think I'm reluctant to 'tell her' what she finds the most comfortable. She values prettiness of things she wears, so what, I think it's important to value a 10 year old's opinion and they need to be respected for that.

@Sandinmyknickers you have made some excellent points.

'I think to an extent, teachers need to make sure that relay teams etc are balanced, and generally try and do relays rather than individual 'this kid is the champion/fastest of all!' type events.'

I think I would have been much happier with this approach.