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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

So embarrassed to be English today

999 replies

UpSlyDown · 12/07/2021 12:20

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

OP posts:
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7
Doublestar · 12/07/2021 13:36

*what does being english

MissJeanBrodiesprime · 12/07/2021 13:36

I refuse to believe the actions of those vile people really reflect on UK as a nation. Personally I don’t know anyone who is racist ie. hates certain people because of where they, their relatives or ancestors originate. These people are the minority and are ruining our self belief because we think it’s a bigger issue than it is. I’m not talking about representation of certain people and agree there needs to be a lot more done and less complacency but these people rioting and shouting racist comments are a small fraction of the population. I also think it happens in all countries in the world to some extent. We should be glad we live in a free country where we have free speech and should be pushing to uphold this and protect people of all beliefs, cultures etc. Don’t allow these people to ruin it for everyone.

LouiseBelchersBunnyEars · 12/07/2021 13:36

@GrandmasCat

I don’t give a shit what happens in other countries, I just know that, only a decade ago, England was one of the most tolerant countries in the world. It is a shame to see what it has become over the last few years of the Tories exploiting differences for political gains.

I am ashamed and saddened because of what we are losing, that tolerance and multiculturalist, what happens in other countries doesn’t erase that.

Ask black players from 10 years ago if they received racist about them, and they will say yes. Stop being so wilfully naive. Racism is not new. Racism didn’t magically come into being since Brexit. I remember exactly the same disgusting comments happening to Ashley Cole while he was in an England shirt.

If you care about stopping racism, then care about stopping it.
Don’t just care about stopping if because it suits your anti Tory anti brexit agenda ffs

DottyHarmer · 12/07/2021 13:37

@Geamhradh - do not speak to me like that. I am trying to reassure people that not all Italians are out to get the English. It’s simply not true. If you are at the mercy of some thugs, call the police. If you are being targeted, then surely the Italian perpetrators should be embarrassed, not an English person?

fairycakes1234 · 12/07/2021 13:37

Im sorry but the fans didnt redeem themselves to anyone, booing when the italian national anthem was playing, all the violence, I live in ireland and sorry to say I think majority of Irish were hoping England would lose, I dont know anyone that wanted England to win and thats the truth :) Some brillant whatsapp going around !!

MistressOfEvilMaleficent · 12/07/2021 13:37

Don't be embarrassed to be English because of a minority who are racist and violent thugs.

It's your country, your heritage your history.

I'm Welsh and whilst we seem to evade the same issues in football and rugby, our fans have always been praised for their good behaviour abroad and the FAW are very clear on what is and isn't acceptable and have given lifetime bans to individuals who do not behave in a correct manner. However having said that you only need be at a Cardiff City V Swansea City derby match to see the violent bad side of football in Wales. But I'm not, not proud to be Welsh.

Wales has its racists, it's thugs it's violent men. But we know and admit they are a minority and need to be dealt with swiftly.

You just need some "Hiraeth".

Also well done to the England lads, they played well. They did you proud, remember that.

Topia · 12/07/2021 13:38

Every country has it’s dose of racists, hooligans & idiots. Football hooliganism is pretty bad in Russia & Poland, for example. By pretty bad I mean organised criminal gangs who will occasionally kill one another over the football “tribal” difference. To say you’re embarrassed to be English is a bit disingenuous

SlipperyDippery · 12/07/2021 13:38

@Qqq67

Same. The booing made that match really uncomfortable to watch. And now all the racism?! Disgraceful, shameful and embarrassing.
People are now complaining about booing during the match? Is this a fucking joke? Have you literally never watched a football match before in your life?
Serenissima123 · 12/07/2021 13:39

I have a lot of Italian friends, lived in Italy for a year and speak the language (I'm an Italian>English translator). I also have three black friends who live in Italy. The racism in Italy makes England look like an absolute utopia. If you are black and live in Italy, it doesn't matter how many years you've lived there or how well you speak Italian, you will always be treated like a foreigner who has just got off a dinghy from Africa.
When my black Italian friend came to visit me in the UK, they couldn't believe how much better they were treated here, and how normal it felt to be black in Britain.

My 2 pence.

VerticalHorizon · 12/07/2021 13:39

It's not only a male problem either (although it's predominantly men in this instance).

Alcohol consumption really isn't helping, and we'll see intoxicated males and females behaving badly frequently on town centres up and down the land.

Sadly with men, there's an overtly aggressive nature that even manages to turn a national anthem in a rallying call - with gestures that more reminiscent of battle cries than of patriotism and pride.
Once couple that alcohol and anger, it's a recipe for disaster.

UsedUpUsername · 12/07/2021 13:40

@HmmmmmmInteresting

Does this happen in other countries? Is it just us?

Most likely not but I didn't see this kind of abuse make headlines around the world when Mbappe missed the penalty that knocked France out.

England is xenophobic and jingoistic now thanks to Brexit and that shower of racists in the cabinet.

I seem to remember Italians throwing bananas at a black footballer but forget exact details as to why
morepizzapls · 12/07/2021 13:40

@fairycakes1234

Im sorry but the fans didnt redeem themselves to anyone, booing when the italian national anthem was playing, all the violence, I live in ireland and sorry to say I think majority of Irish were hoping England would lose, I dont know anyone that wanted England to win and thats the truth :) Some brillant whatsapp going around !!
that's such a bitchy attitude. I know you will say it is because of the "fans" (those who behave abhorrently are not true fans) but what a horrible way of thinking towards a group of young players and a manager who don't deserve such derision.
PlacidPenelope · 12/07/2021 13:41

I was talking about racist abuse of players, ‘hun’, which I’ve never seen reported in media during the years I lived abroad.

I wonder where you have lived abroad @Puppysharness.

Spanish football deemed to be 25 years behind on racism according to the black players who play in Spain reported on 7th April 2021. This came after an incident at Valencia on 4th April 2021 where the team walked off the pitch due to the racial abuse of one of their players.

Here's a few other recent incidents for you:

Italy:

In August 2019, Romelu Lukaku was racially abused by Calgiari opposition fans. He later said that the sport was "going backwards" on racism. An Inter fan group called Curva Nord later said that the monkey chants from opposition fans were a sign of respect towards Lukaku. Italian TV pundit Luciano Passirani was later banned for making racist comments about Lukaku. On 15 September 2019, Franck Kessie was reportedly racially abused by Hellas Verona fans during a match with AC Milan. On 16 September 2019, Hellas Verona released a statement on their Twitter account and denied the happening. Later that month, Piara Powar of anti-discriminatory body Fare said that "the rot is deep" when discussing racism in Italian football.

In October 2019, Lazio were punished with a fine and a closed stadium after fans had been racist. In the same month, Sampdoria and England Under-21s midfielder Ronaldo Vieira was the target of alleged monkey chants from Roma fans in the 0-0 draw between the two sides.

In November 2019, Mario Balotelli was racially abused by opposition fans from Hellas Verona; he kicked the ball into the crowd and threatened to walk off the pitch. Balotelli later described the fans as "small minded". Hellas Verona banned the club's ultra leader from its games until June 2030, after a subsequent interview with him in which he openly called Balotelli racial slurs.

In December 2019 the Corriere dello Sport newspaper was criticised by AS Roma for using a 'Black Friday' headline accompanied by photographs of black players Romelu Lukaku and Chris Smalling. Later that month Serie A launched an anti-racism campaign featuring cartoon monkeys, which was criticised, with club AC Milan distancing itself from the campaign. Serie A later apologised.

Bulgaria:

In 2018 Levski Sofia were fined after fans, including children, were seen making Nazi salutes

Portugal:

On 16 February 2020, Porto footballer Moussa Marega left the pitch after he was subjected to racists insults in a 2-1 victory over Vitoria Guimaraes

Russia:

In a friendly match between Russia and France in Saint Petersburg on 17 April 2018, monkey chants were directed at members of the French team. The noises were picked up by television cameras and reported by photographers at the side of the pitch. As a result, "disciplinary actions have been opened against the Russian Football Union (RFU) for this incident", a FIFA statement read.

In March 2019 Pavel Pogrebnyak was accused of racism after saying it was "laughable" for black players to represent the Russian national team.

Serbia:

In 2017, a group of fans at a game between FK Rad and Partizan Belgrade held up a racist banner and directed monkey sounds towards Everton Luiz, a Brazilian player. Efforts to stop the taunts failed and the opposing team joined in the racist actions, leaving Luiz in tears.

In November 2019 Partizan Belgrade manager Savo Milosevic said there was no racism problem in Serbia after his team were punished for racist actions by fans.

On 18 February 2021, AC Milan forward Zlatan Ibrahimovic was subjected to racist abuse by an individual seated in the VIP box during a Europa League match against Red Star Belgrade.

Scotland:

In November 2018 Dennon Lewis spoke out about the racist abuse he has received from his club's (Falkirk's) own fans.

In October 2019 Rangers player Alfredo Morelos was allegedly racially abused by Hearts fans during a match between the two sides. Later that month Celtic manager Neil Lennon described racism in the sport as a "stain" and that players needed to be protected. In February 2020, a 12-year-old boy was charged with racist abuse aimed at Morelos.

Kilmarnock received a letter in December 2020 after a Boxing Day defeat, which contained racist abuse aimed at manager Alex Dyer.[4 In January 2021, Dundee striker Jonathan Afolabi received racist messages following a victory in the Scottish Cup second round, which Dundee “utterly condemn”.

Racism is abhorrent wherever and whenever it takes place, racists are absolute scum. However, racism in and around football or generally is not the preserve of the English no matter how hard some people try to make it. Racists and racism should be kicked out of all sport and should be rightly seen for the despicable people they are whatever country they come from or are in.

EverythingWillFallInLine · 12/07/2021 13:41

@GrandmasCat ok fair enough if you don't want to see the context of these networks but you're banging on about it so I thought maybe you wished to understand how and where they operated. Clubs were historically rooted in small kind of under the brush (due to class power inequalities) communities with all of the financial and social influences that involves and some of those local influences include undesirable political muscle that it's difficult to root out entirely. It is way wider than English sensibilities (which btw aren't particularly tolerant or accepting now or at any time in the past).

fairycakes1234 · 12/07/2021 13:42

@SlipperyDippery you think its okay that the crowd kept booing while the Italian national anthern was being played??? I was embarrased and Ive watched lots of matchs

pollylocketpickedapocket · 12/07/2021 13:42

@walkoflifewoohoo

No, have you seen the state of the Italians and how they trashed their streets etc last night? Not to mention their dirty play.

I'm not proud of a few dickheads spoiling it for the rest but I'd prefer to be English today and I'm not ashamed Confused

This
Topia · 12/07/2021 13:42

Interesting perspective there from @Serenissima123. I too have witnessed higher levels of racism against black people in Italy, & France than I ever have in England.

Servalan · 12/07/2021 13:42

I suppose it depends what narrative you want to place around Englishness - because there are people that frame Englishness within small minded bigotry - and there is a lot that is going on within that mindset that makes me totally despair.

I guess there's the question of whether we accept that narrative or whether we set our own.

Worth checking out on You Tube - Owen Jones did a show with Ash Sarkar and Billy Bragg yesterday where they were talking about the then impending final and notions of Englishness. I found it a very interesting discussion.

ApplyWithin · 12/07/2021 13:43

Not ashamed to be English in the slightest. A minority of thugs don’t represent me. There are thugs, scumbags, criminals and racists in EVERY country on earth. We have a lot to be proud of as English people. This is a great country.

NVision · 12/07/2021 13:43

Country is ran by a racist and full of racists

No surprise here

As soon as I saw who missed the penalties, I knew what would happen. Imagine if it was Kane, Maguire and Grealish who missed. Doubt there would be half as much outrage.

pollylocketpickedapocket · 12/07/2021 13:44

I’ve been to a football match in Italy where riot police had to close roads and escort us English fans safely away. Everywhere has hooligans and thugs, absolutely everywhere. Really annoyed with the anti English sentiment which is so abundant on MN.

Secondbellini · 12/07/2021 13:44

‘I'm Welsh and whilst we seem to evade the same issues in football and rugby, our fans have always been praised for their good behaviour abroad…’

I was once on a train home from Cardiff in which most of the carriage were chanting F**k off Scotland, we hate England more than you, after a rugby game.

There are fans like that in every country.

ScribblingPixie · 12/07/2021 13:44

@fairycakes1234

Im sorry but the fans didnt redeem themselves to anyone, booing when the italian national anthem was playing, all the violence, I live in ireland and sorry to say I think majority of Irish were hoping England would lose, I dont know anyone that wanted England to win and thats the truth :) Some brillant whatsapp going around !!
Isn't that just par for the course though?
fairycakes1234 · 12/07/2021 13:45

@morepizzapls well its an attitude that a lot of people have, sorry to have to burst your bubble.

SlipperyDippery · 12/07/2021 13:45

[quote fairycakes1234]@SlipperyDippery you think its okay that the crowd kept booing while the Italian national anthern was being played??? I was embarrased and Ive watched lots of matchs[/quote]
No, I think booing a national anthem is out of order (I was watching BBC and didn’t hear booing in the anthem yesterday?)

Booing during a match, which PP was talking about because she said it made the match an uncomfortable watch, is absolutely routine.