So embarrassed to be English today

[UpSlyDown]

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

@Eastie77

What a pity you don’t feel like you belong anywhere.

My DP is black. She is also a lesbian and a woman. She has just read this thread and said “I receive just if not hate and even more in some countries for being a female lesbian than being black”.

This kind of destructive and antisocial fan behaviour is normally not seen much at Wembley but it is very much a feature when England plays abroad. It's not all England fans of course, certainly not the majority in the grand scheme of things, but for many people abroad it's the dominant type of English fan behaviour they will encounter. Now that it happened at Wembley it comes as a shock to many of the casual English fans who haven't experienced too many of these matches. Where did these violent vandals suddenly come from? Well the truth is they were always there as part of the fan subculture and abroad they're often the most dominant one. Excellent thread on this: twitter.com/jackpittbrooke/status/1414578355668664321?s=21

Saying "it's a small group of idiots who are not true England supporters" or "other nations are worse" is rather ignorant and usually spoken by people who don't travel to away matches or don't attend many matches at all. Or simply want to wash their hands off it all.

‘I don’t understand this idea that we are such a laughing stock.’

No, me neither. People love English (and broader U.K.) art, literature, music etc.

If some English people are so ignorant about their own culture, both good and bad, how can they ever develop a nuanced understanding of anyone else’s?

And if you don’t understand other people’s cultures, what hope have you got of treating them decently?

[quote FloconDeNeige]@Eastie77

What a pity you don’t feel like you belong anywhere.[/quote]
I visited a country several years ago, stepped off the plane and felt as if I belonged. I hope to retire there one day. Unfortunately it's quite a way in the future (unless I win the lottery) but the thought of one day leaving behind the daily racism and exhausting micro-aggressions I deal with here keeps me going.

I think it's very hard/impossible for White people to understand the day to day reality of Black people living this country.

Sadly, racism is endemic to greater or lesser extents in all Western nations. So, if the place you’re dreaming of is also predominantly white, you’ll be disappointed when you meet the same issues again.

And if it’s not white, then there’s no guarantee they’ll accept you just because you’re not either.

It's not all England fans of course, certainly not the majority in the grand scheme of things

Definitely not.

There are violent thugs everywhere. It's only so apparent in football (whichever country) because of the sheer numbers of people who follow football. That many people will inevitably include the minority of idiots that every country has.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/one-dead-several-injured-during-italy-euro-2020-celebrations-2021-07-12/

www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/24/russia-neo-nazi-football-hooligans-world-cup

www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/may/13/violence-killing-turkish-football-fenerbahce-besiktas-galatasaray

@babbaloushka nope. I am black

'why would I be jealous? I mean I'm English too since I was born here so I'd be subject to the same pity and derision. Ah. But I'm Black. So not really English'

Well yes you're English if you were born here, or British even.

I'm sorry you have clearly had negative experiences. I would have thought you of all people would know better than to judge and criticise people based on where there were born then? Sadly it seems not.

Silly really, racism. We're all humans. Not that that's something to be proud of. We're a rather destructive species unfortunately.

Racism is understandable when you break it down.
Fear of what we don't understand, or a perceived threat. Someone to blame... it's quite primitive but we still have many primitive traits.

Understandable should not be confused be being condoned. I am talking about comprehension, not approval.

Good grief - sorry for the typos!

I'm sorry you if my reporting of what I've heard abroad when people discuss the English seems Xenophobic, as if I'm delighting in hatred or lying. I'm honestly saying it as I've seen it. I simply didn't hear people say they hated or disliked the Welsh or Scottish.

I'm not doubting that you've seen it. I'm just not sure why you think anyone should care about the (alleged) opinions of random French people. I'm also curious as to why you feel so reluctant to condemn people 'hating' entire nations, so long as that nation is England.

I do understand it's something you can't accept if you love England though.

I don't 'love' England. I don't believe in 'loving' nation states.

Why does anyone have to 'accept' the supposed opinions of assorted French folk, as related by an anonymous poster on MN? If I said that all the English people I know hate the Germans but quite like the Swiss and the Austrians, would that be something Germans need to 'accept'?

And I've lived in several different countries and can't say I've seen this 'pity' for Britain you claim to have found. Well done for ticking all the boxes though I'm a bit surprised you didn't mention chavy tourists on the costa.

'I'm also curious as to why you feel so reluctant to condemn people 'hating' entire nations, so long as that nation is England.'

This!

I don't think we are all brilliant. I think like all home nations we have good and bad living here, it's the blanket condemning of 'The English' that is abhorrent.

@JaniieJones

'England need to be banned from the next Euros as a consequence of the disgraceful behaviour of their fans through this tournament and the lack of security at Wembley to control rampaging mobs.'

Sighs.

Wembley should have had more security and organisation in place.

Some football fans of all nationalities behave appallingly. Didn't thousands of Scots descend on London without tickets? Sturgeon would've had a right strop if England fans had rampage through Scotland.

Some people behave badly.

Very very fortunate there wasn't a tragedy.

Our nearest town has had some pianos out on the street fir people to play outside, not my thing, but a novel nice idea that went down well.
Read on FB that they were damaged last night by drunken young men after the match, and have now been removed.

I refuse to let mindless morons make me lose pride, the kind people that put the pianos outside and all the people that enjoyed them is how I will remember it.

I've been really warmed to see my social media pages full of people sharing supportive posts and commenting on Marcus rashford and the other england players who have spoken out today, England fans who are writing messages of love and support to the team.

like I have previously posted, I refuse to feel ashamed over a minority of absolute idiots when most do not think or behave in such an awful way.

@Whammyyammy

Our nearest town has had some pianos out on the street fir people to play outside, not my thing, but a novel nice idea that went down well. Read on FB that they were damaged last night by drunken young men after the match, and have now been removed.

I refuse to let mindless morons make me lose pride, the kind people that put the pianos outside and all the people that enjoyed them is how I will remember it.

This post touched me.

[quote Tealightsandd]It's not all England fans of course, certainly not the majority in the grand scheme of things

Definitely not.

There are violent thugs everywhere. It's only so apparent in football (whichever country) because of the sheer numbers of people who follow football. That many people will inevitably include the minority of idiots that every country has.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/one-dead-several-injured-during-italy-euro-2020-celebrations-2021-07-12/

www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/24/russia-neo-nazi-football-hooligans-world-cup

www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/may/13/violence-killing-turkish-football-fenerbahce-besiktas-galatasaray[/quote]
Certainly many countries have a hooligan problem. But it's the opposite to what you said. They're not filtered in by sheer big numbers, a few bad apples in a crowd. It's an established fan subculture, and when England plays abroad it's the dominant one. (It is similar with some other nations but I don't know why that matters in this conversation, just detracts from the subject.)

The point is that denying they are as legit England fans as any other and dismissing them as drunken idiots who don't represent England is ignorant. They are often the only representation of England people get to see and a fixture in football fan subculture, not simply thugs swept away with the "real" fans.

'They are often the only representation of England people get to see '

Oh rubbish. It'd be like me saying all English people are vacuous airheads after seeing Instagram 'influencers' on holiday in Dubai.

Most intelligent people know all countries have good and bad. English people seem to be a target as some clearly have chips on their shoulders due to historical crap that has nothing to do with today's generations. I've lived abroad and this country is brilliant in comparison to many others.

when England plays abroad it's the dominant one.

Because the media focus on it. The well behaved majority aren't going to make the headlines.

You should really read those links I posted.
It's absolutely not an England thing. It happens around the world.

Every country has its idiots.

So much middle class sanctimonious sneering in some of these comments. Accusing the working class of all being racist, of always talking about the war, of being thick uncultured louts. All false bigoted accusations, from positions of privilege. They've probably never even met an average football fan

@Flaxmeadow

So much middle class sanctimonious sneering in some of these comments. Accusing the working class of all being racist, of always talking about the war, of being thick uncultured louts. All false bigoted accusations, from positions of privilege. They've probably never even met an average football fan

Indeed it's quite ironic really.

Covert racism is real.

Institutional racism is real.

No one stands to gain anything by sticking their heads in the sand and denying that this is the case. A truly level playing field would see everyone considered on their merits, discrimination would be at an end, and perhaps then 'race' could really become an irrelevancy, other than in terms of people's belonging or sense of background.

What this thread shows - as does the 'ashamed to be English' one - is that some white people are really, REALLY uncomfortable when it comes to talking about race. It's also interesting that denial - putting your fingers in your ears and going 'la la la that doesn't exist' - itself comes from a position of privilege. Our BAME compatriots don't have the luxury of doing that; they have to live this prejudice on a daily basis. And it's insidious, not just about overt chants of the 'N' word.

More sadly, perhaps it's the case that once one social group attains a position of privilege they are not at all keen to relinquish it. Check out masculine privilege for a case in point.