So embarrassed to be English today

[UpSlyDown]

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

@chaosrabbitland

yes i feel the same p[ , i was born in north america and my mother who is not english either brought me to england when i was 2 , i used to feel proud to be english ,but that feeling has gradually gone and now i just feel embarressed to say i am , its everything you have mentioned in your post and more , brexit was the start of it for me , it made us look like a bunch of whinging complainers . its a disaster , we havent come out well at all , its no wonder we are the laughing stock of europe , im concious we are not thought well of at all

although there are hundreds of english tourists who go to spain and greece each year , i well remember the articles in the paper along with pictures of our young english in the resorts , drinking themselves sick before throwing up in the streets and screwing each other in the streets as well , what the hell do the local spanish and greeks think ?

our education system is lacking . the wondrous nhs desperatly needs reform .

i dont spend my time wondering what my life would have been like had my mother not brought me here because then i wouldnt have my lovely daughter , but the country im from is ranked in the top ten of best to live , its got its problems like any other , but i have been back and it doesnt even begin to compare to here , if i won the lottery id seriously consider moving back there .

You are an individual not a sheep. Let people judge you on YOUR actions not a minority of morons.

chaosrabbitland

what the hell do the local spanish and greeks think ?

As they have an industry that has grown up around these types of people they probably think.

'lets rake in as much money as possible from these stupid bastards before they go home'.

Remember that these people go there because of the reputation of the place.

Youarestillintherunning - Nobody on here is trying to justify the appalling behaviour of some of the fans last night, but I am not responsible for how others behave.

Well said @Blessex 👏

We have such a likeable team with a brilliant manager. There is so much bile and vitriol about England and the English team, the xenophobia on this thread is sickening.

@Footballisgoingtorome 🌸 do you know what, I just think it's one of those days. I definitely shouldn't have posted on mumsnet, I've had a horrible day and came on here to lose myself a bit, and I'm genuinely not trying to offend or upset anyone by sharing my opinion, but from other posters replies to me it seems I have done exactly that! I really hope that if nothing else, the authorities in charge of these kind of events take more preventative measures in the future, and I really hope that those who were either involved or making racists comments against the players are dealt with properly.

In my experience they do and many European nations will side with and find common cause with Scotland/Wales/Ireland against England. Sorry if that upsets you but it is what it is.

Why on earth would this 'upset' me? Very many people will support whoever is playing Germany. Should Germans be 'upset' by that?

I wouldn't particularly care if someone talked about the Germans and English being united in their hatred of the French

That's fine. I just think it's kind of odd for people to gather together 'united in hatred' for this or that country. Is it OK to hate all countries? Would it be OK for English people to 'unite in hatred' of Scots or Irish for example?

I don't understand your point. I can't mention racism in England because it occurs in other countries as well?

You didn't just 'mention racism'. You spoke of 'the vile racism that lies at the heart of this rotten country' with not a word of the racism which is quite common among the united haters of France.

'I wonder how you'd feel if someone talked about, say, the Germans and English being united in their hatred of the French, and gloating over their defeat to lowly Switzerland two weeks ago? And I notice you have nothing to say about racism in France. A black colleague of mine lived there and said the everyday casual racism she encountered was appalling'

Exactly. The racism is Europe is off the scale. As it is ironically in Scotland.

It's not just an English thing.

I'm Scottish and was appalled by the behaviour of a lot of our football fans after the England match and also after the Rangers match in Glasgow.

Domestic abuse also rises everywhere after any big football game.

It's not the English/ Scottish/ Italian people as nationalities who are to blame and I hope every football "fan" who has behaved badly is brought to account for their behaviour.

Let's accept the fact that a significant number of our football supporters are scum. It's not the case in other sports, and seems much worse for our national team, than for most club teams (Everton here!).

We have a bad reputation, it's deserved. It's not going to change.

Southgate has done an amazing job. Each tournament we're getting better, and have more and more good players developing. Roll on 2022!

@Eastie77

Nope, disagree. I’ve been with DH (a Frenchman) for 15 years. I’ve lived in Paris and in Marseille. I now live on the Swiss side of the Franco-Swiss border. I’ve also lived in the Philippines, Malaysia and Taiwan. I currently work at for a US MNC company in Switzerland (we are 90 nationalities, here). I’ve worked for 3 international organisations.

Most people are aware there are home nations (although N.I. is routinely forgotten) but they mix them all up and often refer to them interchangeably.

The French, like most other Europeans, are aware of the home nations when they play one in sport. The rest of the time, many tend to do the above, in my significant experience.

Sorry to burst your xenophobic bubble.

[quote BurnstonesBabies]@scottmichael thank you for saying that! I am English and have lived in Scotland for 20 years and still can't get my head around the anti Englishness up here, especially when it comes to football and the 'anyone but England' attitude. I really, really didn't want to come to work today because of the sarcasm, gloating and general nasty sniping about last night's result and I am supposedly not allowed to be gutted about it either. I would never send Scottish fans negative messages or purposefully support their opponents. It just baffles me how wound up some Scots get about England doing well. They say it's banter, but really it's not.[/quote]
I'm sorry if you have suffered from any anti English feeling. However the coverage of this tournament has been ridiculous from a Scottish point of view or even from a football fan point of view. I've watched every single match. Pre match analysis, half time analysis, post match analysis of any match... discussion of England team always included. BBC Breakfast programme, Good Morning Britain entirely devoted to England's progress. Presenters talk about 'us' and 'we' when talking about the England team. Italy have won four World Cups and one European Championship previous to this one. Italy were unbeaten in over 30 matches previous to this.
And yet the media whipped people into a frenzy with pundits predicting a 2-0 score to England.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_national_football_team
Of course the England team did very well. I like Gareth Southgate and his low key approach and the players are much more humble than in decades past.
However OP YABU to be ashamed to be English. Every country has its yobs, racists and bigots.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars

I just think it’s interesting how those on the left decry Tory Brexit voters as knuckle dragging jingoistic xenophobic little Englanders, yet it’s them who seem to be so inexplicable linked, meshed and intertwined to their nationality that it’s the only thing that defines them, and they themselves feel a sense of shame due to something that had nothing to do with them, that they do not condone, purely because they were born in the same country as the perpetrators.

I mean, there’s a word for that, when you group everyone together based purely on where they were born, and feel they are all responsible and representative of the actions of the few.

Disgusting, VILE post. Shame on you.

And the irony is breathtaking. What a nasty bigoted pile of bile.

It's because of people like you, that the divisions continue.

If anybody wants to judge the English population by the behaviour of a minority, then they can go ahead. I’m not embarrassed of my nationality. Anymore than I judge the people of Yorkshire, based on Peter Sutcliffes deeds, or judge all Germans on Fritzels behaviour.
Get a grip….

@Secondbellini

By any measure, the U.K. is one of the most popular and well liked countries in the world.

@Secondbellini Would you ever stop, do you even believe that :)

I didn't say racism doesn't exist in other countries. Of course it does.

This thread is (or was) about England. I was born in England and have experienced racism here my entire life so I see racism through the lens of my lived experience in this country.

The "whataboutery" on this thread is both sad and predictable. Black people in this country can't complain about racism because other countries are so much worse . So many offended White people feel the need to lecture us on this subject (how dare you criticize England? Dontcha know those poor Black people in country x are suffering?) it's almost comical.

England is a racist country. It's often a deeply unpleasant place to live if you are Black or Brown. I'm sure the same could be said for Scotland, Wales and Ireland and a hundred other countries but I've never lived in those countries and I'm not commenting on them . I did live in France and agreed 100% that racism is endemic there but really there's no need to drag other countries into the equation when we are discussing England.

As for the "united in hatred" subject: again, I'm simply retelling what I have seen and heard. I did not say I think the hatred is acceptable or a good thing. Maybe I should rework a well worn phrase people here love to use when talking about racism: "It's only a minority of Scots/Welsh/Irish who hate the English so please don't worry about it" Does that make you all feel better?

There are some seriously warped people on here. It is horrifying if they truly think that everyone in England is as they portray (excepting them of course ) .

What is worrying is their desire to stoke up hatred and division - I guess it’s some kind of political aim.

Those who really believe the grass is greener in Europe are deluded.

[quote Topia]@fairycakes1234

I live in ireland and sorry to say I think majority of Irish were hoping England would lose, I dont know anyone that wanted England to win and thats the truth smile Some brillant whatsapp going around !!

Nice bit of racism there against the English. Well done for posting.[/quote]
@Topia sorry, just saying it how it is :) Ask any Irish person who they were up for, I dont think you will hear anyone say England, its just a fact, its always been like that, right or wrong.

@Eastie77

I didn't say racism doesn't exist in other countries. Of course it does.

This thread is (or was) about England. I was born in England and have experienced racism here my entire life so I see racism through the lens of my lived experience in this country.

The "whataboutery" on this thread is both sad and predictable. Black people in this country can't complain about racism because other countries are so much worse . So many offended White people feel the need to lecture us on this subject (how dare you criticize England? Dontcha know those poor Black people in country x are suffering?) it's almost comical.

England is a racist country. It's often a deeply unpleasant place to live if you are Black or Brown. I'm sure the same could be said for Scotland, Wales and Ireland and a hundred other countries but I've never lived in those countries and I'm not commenting on them . I did live in France and agreed 100% that racism is endemic there but really there's no need to drag other countries into the equation when we are discussing England.

As for the "united in hatred" subject: again, I'm simply retelling what I have seen and heard. I did not say I think the hatred is acceptable or a good thing. Maybe I should rework a well worn phrase people here love to use when talking about racism: "It's only a minority of Scots/Welsh/Irish who hate the English so please don't worry about it" Does that make you all feel better?

That's a wonderful post and I agree. We all accept that some other nations might be much worse, but we can only look to ourselves as individuals and ask 'what can I do to be less racist?' or 'am I as prejudice free as I think I am?'

Racism can ONLY change when it starts with you and me, not everybody else. We must look to ourselves first, and hope others will follow.

Fairy cakes, yes I do believe it. You can look at research, international opinion polls etc.

'Most countries are fully cognizant of the difference between England and the other home nations and the English are disliked in a way the Welsh and Scottish are not. I find the Irish are universally liked everywhere.'

Bollocks. I've lived and worked abroad and this just is not true no matter how much you want it to be.

It seems so very ironic that people rightly object to racist abuse yet join in excitedly with xenophobic abuse.

It is definitely not just an English thing and I am proud of myself and my heritage. If others want to hate the English it doesn’t affect me. I don’t go around hating others or other countries and I am certainly not part of minority of racist/thuggish idiots.

@JaniieJones

'Most countries are fully cognizant of the difference between England and the other home nations and the English are disliked in a way the Welsh and Scottish are not. I find the Irish are universally liked everywhere.'

Bollocks. I've lived and worked abroad and this just is not true no matter how much you want it to be.

It seems so very ironic that people rightly object to racist abuse yet join in excitedly with xenophobic abuse.

Agree!

It seems so very ironic that people rightly object to racist abuse yet join in excitedly with xenophobic abuse

This. Why is is acceptable for parents to teach their children to hate English people but not people of other races? To encourage their children to jeer at an England football loss? Why is this ok? From people who have made their home in England and whose children are English-born and educated? Just baffling to me. Why on earth live in a country you hate so much?

Racism is wrong.
Xenophobia is wrong.

You can’t be aghast at one but accept the other.

The "whataboutery" on this thread is both sad and predictable. Black people in this country can't complain about racism because other countries are so much worse . So many offended White people feel the need to lecture us on this subject (how dare you criticize England? Dontcha know those poor Black people in country x are suffering?) it's almost comical.

But this thread is not about whether or not racism is a problem in England. I think most people would agree that it is. It's poster asking if she's being unreasonable to be ashamed to be English because of the behaviour of a minority. In that context, it's quite reasonable to point out that England is not at all exceptional when it comes to racism. Pretty much every country has similar, if not worse, problems, so being 'ashamed' to be English for that reason makes little sense.

As for the "united in hatred" subject: again, I'm simply retelling what I have seen and heard. I did not say I think the hatred is acceptable or a good thing.

You also didn't say that it was a bad thing. I've a feeling that if it were English people 'mingling' and 'united in hatred' of some other country, you would be quite explicit in condemning it. But you have not done so here.

@JaniieJones

'Most countries are fully cognizant of the difference between England and the other home nations and the English are disliked in a way the Welsh and Scottish are not. I find the Irish are universally liked everywhere.'

Bollocks. I've lived and worked abroad and this just is not true no matter how much you want it to be.

It seems so very ironic that people rightly object to racist abuse yet join in excitedly with xenophobic abuse.

Well, my experience of this is that people do know the difference. It's not about me "wanting it to be true". I've got no skin in the game and don't really care either way.

Have to admit that I do find it amusing that so many people are upset about this. I mean, if you're proud and English wouldn't you want people to know the difference?!