So embarrassed to be English today

[UpSlyDown]

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

Bold fail

I have never really felt proud to be British. That is due to two things.

1. Being black (self explanatory hopefully).
2. I have only ever felt proud of things that have been achieved. I don't feel proud for things I have no control over. I could have quite easily been born in Italy instead.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars

I just think it’s interesting how those on the left decry Tory Brexit voters as knuckle dragging jingoistic xenophobic little Englanders, yet it’s them who seem to be so inexplicable linked, meshed and intertwined to their nationality that it’s the only thing that defines them, and they themselves feel a sense of shame due to something that had nothing to do with them, that they do not condone, purely because they were born in the same country as the perpetrators.

I mean, there’s a word for that, when you group everyone together based purely on where they were born, and feel they are all responsible and representative of the actions of the few.

Well said. Yes

@herecomesthsun

I think the racists are a small (but embarrassing) minority.

As a victim of racism, I would argue that they're more prevalent than you believe, and it's the people you wouldn't expect, because they're not racist around you.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars

I just think it’s interesting how those on the left decry Tory Brexit voters as knuckle dragging jingoistic xenophobic little Englanders, yet it’s them who seem to be so inexplicable linked, meshed and intertwined to their nationality that it’s the only thing that defines them, and they themselves feel a sense of shame due to something that had nothing to do with them, that they do not condone, purely because they were born in the same country as the perpetrators.

I mean, there’s a word for that, when you group everyone together based purely on where they were born, and feel they are all responsible and representative of the actions of the few.

True. And the inability to see it will mean no positivity for ages.

As a victim of racism, I would argue that they're more prevalent than you believe, and it's the people you wouldn't expect, because they're not racist around you.

This it’s much more widespread than some people on here would have you believe .

You're getting fed up? Imagine how black and brown people feel

I’m brown (Arabic), and I’m sick to fuck of the disingenuous posts on this thread suggesting that those who are discussing the point of the thread, namely whether there is a link between being English and twatty behaviour such that the English should feel embarrassed, are minimising or justifying racism. They aren’t. By discussing racism’s prevalence elsewhere, they’re answering the question OP asked.

@Pottedpalm

I think @FootballisgoingtoRome is saying you’re sweeping racism under the carpet and she is right. @Chainjane posted that racism is hardly the biggest thing to worry about and instead of rebutting her, you make fun of @Footballis ‘s grammar and use of the word ‘wow’.

‘How do you know everyone agrees it’s wrong if they won’t call it out?’

Well I am not keeping a spreadsheet of every single poster on the thread, but the tone of the debate is who is responsible for racism, which suggests people think it is a bad thing.

I don’t feel a need for everyone to engage in a mass call out on any particular topic. I am interested in why people do as it fits with those whole thing of a new religion forming around identity politics, but that’s not really the topic of this thread, which is largely about whether it is racist to blame an ethnic group can be blamed for

Yes but you’re so busy shouting down those who are calling it out that you’re forgetting to call it out yourself

Except I haven't shouted down anyone. And certainly not anyone for calling out racism.

I've called out those who are name calling others - like OP strongly implying that right wing people and brexiteers are racist, that's just blatant prejudice and seriously unpleasant - hardly a step to a tolerant society, more a massive leap backwards into a hideously divided society. Or pp calling 'whataboutery' when people are debating the topic of the thread, whether Englishness is so linked to racism that you have to ashamed of being English.

@babbaloushka

As a victim of racism, I would argue that they're more prevalent than you believe, and it's the people you wouldn't expect, because they're not racist around you.

I agree, racism isn’t just being sworn at or beaten up, it can be present in the most mundane interaction, at work with colleagues, with friends. That’s what makes it so bad, you can’t predict who will say what to you when so you can’t avoid it.

Saying racism is only committed by a small minority comes from immense privilege.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars

I just think it’s interesting how those on the left decry Tory Brexit voters as knuckle dragging jingoistic xenophobic little Englanders, yet it’s them who seem to be so inexplicable linked, meshed and intertwined to their nationality that it’s the only thing that defines them, and they themselves feel a sense of shame due to something that had nothing to do with them, that they do not condone, purely because they were born in the same country as the perpetrators.

I mean, there’s a word for that, when you group everyone together based purely on where they were born, and feel they are all responsible and representative of the actions of the few.

Um, Remainer left winger Labour party member here. I'm one of the ones who does not feel ashamed to be English! Don't just assume people's political stances.

@notlikethisreally

Yes but you’re so busy shouting down those who are calling it out that you’re forgetting to call it out yourself

Except I haven't shouted down anyone. And certainly not anyone for calling out racism.

I've called out those who are name calling others - like OP strongly implying that right wing people and brexiteers are racist, that's just blatant prejudice and seriously unpleasant - hardly a step to a tolerant society, more a massive leap backwards into a hideously divided society. Or pp calling 'whataboutery' when people are debating the topic of the thread, whether Englishness is so linked to racism that you have to ashamed of being English.

What about the person saying racism isn’t a big thing? Did you call that out?

And now the patronising post 🙄 With all due respect (and I mean that in the most English of ways) if you ask a silly question...

It’s not debate when you’e shouting people down. And I don’t see it happening the other way. How is anyone being shouted down? Everybody has the opportunity to respond to whichever post they like and set their views out. How is anyone being prevented from doing that? I’d say it’s a 50/50 exchange of views.

And then go on to imply it’s fine to shout them down because they are suggesting something. So you’re being hypocritical. Again, nobody is being shouted down. People are responding to points that have been made that they don’t agree with. Nobody is telling anyone to shut up.

You think I’m a patronising hypocrite. I think you don’t understand the concept of a forum. Who knows, we could both be right 🙂

I am so proud of our team of lions and choose to focus on them and their values today. Read this on social media and 100% agree.

This is England.

This is England: Raheem Sterling, whose big sister would go with him to training and back every day, three buses each way, and never once complained. Raheem Sterling, who called the day he bought his mum a house ‘the best day of my life.’

This is England: Jordan Henderson, who spent most of the first lockdown last year organising the other 19 Premiership captains to help raise money for the NHS.

This is England: Marcus Rashford, who secured free school meals for vulnerable kids during school holidays after the government had refused to extend the programme. Marcus Rashford, who lives by the words of his mother Melanie: ‘take pride in knowing that your struggle will play the biggest role in your purpose.’

This is England: Mason Mount, who gave the shirt he’d worn in the semi-final victory over Denmark to a 10-year-old girl called Belle in the crowd, and in doing her made her smile a smile so incandescent it could melt the Siberian permafrost.

This is England: Tyrone Mings, who spent part of his childhood in a homeless shelter, who played non-league football while working as a barman and mortgage advisor, and who tells kids at the coaching camps he runs that the game is nothing unless they enjoy it. Tyrone Mings, who was taunted with monkey chants on his England debut against Bulgaria and didn’t pretend he hadn’t heard, who turned to the assistant referee and said, firmly but without aggression, ‘did you hear that?’ As in: we’ve got a problem here, you’re part of the officiating team, so this is your problem too and I’m not going to let you duck it, because though this was the most important match of his life there were some things which were more important still than that.

This is England: Luke Shaw, who when playing for Southampton watched Liverpool players file unseeingly past two small boys waiting for their autographs, and who went over and said ‘I know I don’t play for your team, but will I do?’ and posed for a photo with them which they will never forget.

This is England: Declan Rice, who would play cage football in New Malden every day after school and all day on Saturdays, not because he was the best but because he wasn’t.

This is England: Bukayo Saka, who got As and A*s in his GCSEs because his parents insisted that he work as hard inside the classroom as he did on the pitch. Bukayo Saka, whose Christian name in Yoruba means ‘adds to happiness.’

This is England: Kieran Trippier, who still speaks regularly to his old teachers at Woodhey High School in Bury because they looked out for him and his brothers. Kieran Trippier, who every day has cause to reflect on the truth of the inscription by the school gates: ‘where dreams may grow.’

This is England: Kalvin Phillips, whose mum worked two jobs while his dad was in and out of prison. One of those jobs was at Harpo’s Pizzas, where you can now order the Kalvin’s Special.

This is England: Gareth Southgate, who until recently was most famous for missing a penalty he had the balls to volunteer for even though he’d never taken one before, because he knew what Teddy Roosevelt meant when he talked about the man in the arena.

These, too, are England: an incompetent government and an ineffectual opposition; a system which rewards the venal, the vainglorious and the mendacious; tribes which assume the worst of each other and snipe over Brexit, lockdown and masks; public services creaking under the strain of decades of underfunding; kids getting stabbed and women getting attacked; morons who boo the opponents’ national anthems and shine laser pens at their goalkeepers; and so very, very much more. These too are England, and they will still be so next week, next month and next year.

But, if only for today, there is an England of Raheem Sterling and Jordan Henderson, of Marcus Rashford and Mason Mount, of Tyrone Mings and Luke Shaw, of Declan Rice and Bukayo Saka, of Kieran Trippier and Kalvin Phillips, and of Gareth Southgate. If only for today, this is my England. You choose yours.

What about the person saying racism isn’t a big thing? Did you call that out?

I did, yes. I said few things were bigger problems than racism or words to that effect.

I still think the suggestion of being embarrassed to be English is ridiculous

It is embarrassing when you see countless reactions to things about:

The English go on the rampage

The English want to end all COVID restrictions (when 50%-72% of people want to keep masks etc)

All because of stupid, high profile people and our bloody government.

I thought the poster said it wasn’t the biggest thing?

Maybe they were comparing it to child abuse, war, famine, deadly disease and contemporary slavery?

All of which are of course made worse when racism is involved, but on their own are really bad.

@Blessex

I am so proud of our team of lions and choose to focus on them and their values today. Read this on social media and 100% agree.

This is England.

This is England: Raheem Sterling, whose big sister would go with him to training and back every day, three buses each way, and never once complained. Raheem Sterling, who called the day he bought his mum a house ‘the best day of my life.’

This is England: Jordan Henderson, who spent most of the first lockdown last year organising the other 19 Premiership captains to help raise money for the NHS.

This is England: Marcus Rashford, who secured free school meals for vulnerable kids during school holidays after the government had refused to extend the programme. Marcus Rashford, who lives by the words of his mother Melanie: ‘take pride in knowing that your struggle will play the biggest role in your purpose.’

This is England: Mason Mount, who gave the shirt he’d worn in the semi-final victory over Denmark to a 10-year-old girl called Belle in the crowd, and in doing her made her smile a smile so incandescent it could melt the Siberian permafrost.

This is England: Tyrone Mings, who spent part of his childhood in a homeless shelter, who played non-league football while working as a barman and mortgage advisor, and who tells kids at the coaching camps he runs that the game is nothing unless they enjoy it. Tyrone Mings, who was taunted with monkey chants on his England debut against Bulgaria and didn’t pretend he hadn’t heard, who turned to the assistant referee and said, firmly but without aggression, ‘did you hear that?’ As in: we’ve got a problem here, you’re part of the officiating team, so this is your problem too and I’m not going to let you duck it, because though this was the most important match of his life there were some things which were more important still than that.

This is England: Luke Shaw, who when playing for Southampton watched Liverpool players file unseeingly past two small boys waiting for their autographs, and who went over and said ‘I know I don’t play for your team, but will I do?’ and posed for a photo with them which they will never forget.

This is England: Declan Rice, who would play cage football in New Malden every day after school and all day on Saturdays, not because he was the best but because he wasn’t.

This is England: Bukayo Saka, who got As and A*s in his GCSEs because his parents insisted that he work as hard inside the classroom as he did on the pitch. Bukayo Saka, whose Christian name in Yoruba means ‘adds to happiness.’

This is England: Kieran Trippier, who still speaks regularly to his old teachers at Woodhey High School in Bury because they looked out for him and his brothers. Kieran Trippier, who every day has cause to reflect on the truth of the inscription by the school gates: ‘where dreams may grow.’

This is England: Kalvin Phillips, whose mum worked two jobs while his dad was in and out of prison. One of those jobs was at Harpo’s Pizzas, where you can now order the Kalvin’s Special.

This is England: Gareth Southgate, who until recently was most famous for missing a penalty he had the balls to volunteer for even though he’d never taken one before, because he knew what Teddy Roosevelt meant when he talked about the man in the arena.

These, too, are England: an incompetent government and an ineffectual opposition; a system which rewards the venal, the vainglorious and the mendacious; tribes which assume the worst of each other and snipe over Brexit, lockdown and masks; public services creaking under the strain of decades of underfunding; kids getting stabbed and women getting attacked; morons who boo the opponents’ national anthems and shine laser pens at their goalkeepers; and so very, very much more. These too are England, and they will still be so next week, next month and next year.

But, if only for today, there is an England of Raheem Sterling and Jordan Henderson, of Marcus Rashford and Mason Mount, of Tyrone Mings and Luke Shaw, of Declan Rice and Bukayo Saka, of Kieran Trippier and Kalvin Phillips, and of Gareth Southgate. If only for today, this is my England. You choose yours.

Fab. Mine too

It's interesting how little the English understand that they have a poor reputation around the world, and are generally disliked. Doesn't apply obviously to the Scots/Welsh/N.Irish.

This is absolutely laughable in it’s naive stupidity. I’m a Brit (English) and have lived abroad for the past 15 years in 5 different countries. Next to nobody outside of the UK differentiates between the home nations. The French talk about ‘les Anglais’ and mean everyone. When on holiday in Wales with FIL (French) I had to keep correcting him.

The British don’t have a better or worse perceived image abroad than most of the rest of the world’s nations. People are just people at the end of the day.

You might like to take a look in the mirror to get the plank out of your eye.

@Sn0tnose

And now the patronising post 🙄 With all due respect (and I mean that in the most English of ways) if you ask a silly question...

It’s not debate when you’e shouting people down. And I don’t see it happening the other way. How is anyone being shouted down? Everybody has the opportunity to respond to whichever post they like and set their views out. How is anyone being prevented from doing that? I’d say it’s a 50/50 exchange of views.

And then go on to imply it’s fine to shout them down because they are suggesting something. So you’re being hypocritical. Again, nobody is being shouted down. People are responding to points that have been made that they don’t agree with. Nobody is telling anyone to shut up.

You think I’m a patronising hypocrite. I think you don’t understand the concept of a forum. Who knows, we could both be right 🙂

Ah more ad homs. You’re not very good at debate are you?

You pretty much said it’s fine to shout people down as they have a view you disagree with.

At least own it.

@Secondbellini

I thought the poster said it wasn’t the biggest thing?

Maybe they were comparing it to child abuse, war, famine, deadly disease and contemporary slavery?

All of which are of course made worse when racism is involved, but on their own are really bad.

I think it was a serial killer or a paedophile being on the loose.

Either way I think it’s inappropriate to use language that downplays racism, which in my opinion that post did.

That was really moving post Blessex. Thank you for writing it.

Yes, I see your point SlipperyDippery.

@SlipperyDippery

What about the person saying racism isn’t a big thing? Did you call that out?

I did, yes. I said few things were bigger problems than racism or words to that effect.

I still think the suggestion of being embarrassed to be English is ridiculous

Then we’re agreed, but my post was directed to another poster (@notlikethisreally i think)