So embarrassed to be English today

[UpSlyDown]

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

‘Only on MN is being politically correct and not a racist seen as a bad thing. Can't cure schtoopid I guess.’

Both political correctness and racism are widely unpopular, as I am sure you know really.

@NiceGerbil

Gream the vid I saw they were attacking loads of people

No I don't know about the one they were kicking on the ground but I'd put money on him being an Italy supporter (which I might lose obv).

The vid I saw was shocking.

I don’t think those English thugs cared who they were hitting as long as they were attacking someone even if it was each other .Shameful.

@GrandmasCat

I don’t give a shit what happens in other countries, I just know that, only a decade ago, England was one of the most tolerant countries in the world. It is a shame to see what it has become over the last few years of the Tories exploiting differences for political gains.

I am ashamed and saddened because of what we are losing, that tolerance and multiculturalist, what happens in other countries doesn’t erase that.

this with bells on

There have been some racist comments by the minority which clearly is completely wrong and unforgivable. However this is far from and English problem exclusively, there are large racist elements in France (hence the rise of Le Penn) and Germany let alone eastern Europe where the issue often occurs and matches have to be played behind closed doors. We are far from perfect but we do more and are more inclusive than many other European countries

You should be very proud of the young lads on the English team, they are absolutely amazing lads and the whole country should be filled with pride about them.

I was. They did this nation absolutely proud - UNTIL they let us down with that show of petulance when most of the team took off their runner-up medals the moment they'd been awarded them. That was disappointing and I thought painted us in a very bad light. The squad were amazing throughout the whole tournament. And even though the best team won on finals day, we still took them all the way to a penalty shootout. Why the 'devastation'; it was a brilliant achievement.

As for racism, it's never other than abhorrent, ugly behaviour and it's right that people are concerned. All very well to disassociate yourself from it with a Not All the English Are Like That defence. If it's true other nations have issues then it's also true to say UK football (and particularly certain clubs) has a name for it, and it would be disingenuous to pretend it hasn't long been an issue within UK football. I for one would like to find out why, and to see it stamped out. It shows all of us up in a bad light.

Nor is this one we can wholly lay at the door of men. The violence is another matter, though.

We are far from perfect but we do more and are more inclusive than many other European countries.

That isn't the point (and I'm not convinced it's necessarily true). It isn't a race to the bottom. And we still don't do anywhere near enough.

@Sn0tnose

Why are those saying they do feel ashamed not allowed to have an opinion without being ridiculed? They’re just being shouted down because they don’t hold the right opinion.

Partly because that’s how debate works. Just as many people who agree with them are speaking out and defending their views. And partly because they are suggesting that being English is a bad thing due to the actions of a vile minority. It’s not.

And now the patronising post 🙄

It’s not debate when you’e shouting people down. And I don’t see it happening the other way.

And then go on to imply it’s fine to shout them down because they are suggesting something. So you’re being hypocritical.

@NiceGerbil

Gream the vid I saw they were attacking loads of people

No I don't know about the one they were kicking on the ground but I'd put money on him being an Italy supporter (which I might lose obv).

The vid I saw was shocking.

Yes, that's the one. Guy in grey tracky bottoms? The newspaper websites have linked to it, saying they were all English, and that in some of the footage you can hear him say "I'm English". I did wonder if he was picked particularly because he wasn't white, but I don't think (at least according to the news) he's Italian. It was an awful video- absolutely not trying to excuse it at all- but it doesn't seem to be Italians being beaten. In the same video you can see a teenage boy being thumped. Struck me as well, that a lot of the men putting the boot in seem relatively middle-aged, in their 40s and 50s. So probably been doing it for decades.

@NWmother

There have been some racist comments by the minority which clearly is completely wrong and unforgivable. However this is far from and English problem exclusively, there are large racist elements in France (hence the rise of Le Penn) and Germany let alone eastern Europe where the issue often occurs and matches have to be played behind closed doors. We are far from perfect but we do more and are more inclusive than many other European countries

I hate this argument. Don’t assume, try asking BAME people how they feel. They will not say we are inclusive. We are not.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

You should be very proud of the young lads on the English team, they are absolutely amazing lads and the whole country should be filled with pride about them.

I was. They did this nation absolutely proud - UNTIL they let us down with that show of petulance when most of the team took off their runner-up medals the moment they'd been awarded them. That was disappointing and I thought painted us in a very bad light. The squad were amazing throughout the whole tournament. And even though the best team won on finals day, we still took them all the way to a penalty shootout. Why the 'devastation'; it was a brilliant achievement.

As for racism, it's never other than abhorrent, ugly behaviour and it's right that people are concerned. All very well to disassociate yourself from it with a Not All the English Are Like That defence. If it's true other nations have issues then it's also true to say UK football (and particularly certain clubs) has a name for it, and it would be disingenuous to pretend it hasn't long been an issue within UK football. I for one would like to find out why, and to see it stamped out. It shows all of us up in a bad light.

Nor is this one we can wholly lay at the door of men. The violence is another matter, though.

I want it traced back and police involved and SM to be held more accountable

I don’t feel ashamed though. I write positive stuff about the team online.

As for violence given that women are often on the receiving end no chance I’m feeling ashamed and accountable

@Meraas How is it not happening the other way when some have said those who are not ashamed to be English are the reason racism exists?

How is that defendable?

@Secondbellini

‘Only on MN is being politically correct and not a racist seen as a bad thing. Can't cure schtoopid I guess.’

Both political correctness and racism are widely unpopular, as I am sure you know really.

By racists and other -ists, yeah. Of which MN has a disproportionate number. "As I'm sure you know".

@morepizzapls so debate that person, why shout down everyone else?

Wasn’t it the Russian World Cup where the families of our black football players were told not to go to support as they risked being killed by racists?
South America where a player was killed after missing a vital penalty?
The Roma thug who left Sean Cox with brain injuries?

It is not specific to English football fans.

There are no winners in this argument . It sad that you seem to think that . We will never win against racism and thuggery until we call it out . Saying it happens worse in other countries is whataboutery. No racism and thuggery is not an exclusive problem to England. But it is a massive problem in England . Sweeping it under the carpet as others are worse helps no one

Literally no-one on this thread is saying that racism and thuggery should not be called out. You appear to have completely misunderstood what this thread is debating.

Okay, if you feel the world is divided up into the politically correct vs. stupid racists, homophobes etc, that is your view of society.

But I don’t think it is how most people see society as working.

It would be very hard to treat the majority of society with dignity and respect if you think everyone who doesn’t share your political and social views is a stupid racist.

@notlikethisreally

There are no winners in this argument . It sad that you seem to think that . We will never win against racism and thuggery until we call it out . Saying it happens worse in other countries is whataboutery. No racism and thuggery is not an exclusive problem to England. But it is a massive problem in England . Sweeping it under the carpet as others are worse helps no one

Literally no-one on this thread is saying that racism and thuggery should not be called out. You appear to have completely misunderstood what this thread is debating.

Yes but you’re so busy shouting down those who are calling it out that you’re forgetting to call it out yourself.

What is the point of calling out something which everyone on here agrees is wrong?

I think the racists are a small (but embarrassing) minority.

I just think it’s interesting how those on the left decry Tory Brexit voters as knuckle dragging jingoistic xenophobic little Englanders, yet it’s them who seem to be so inexplicable linked, meshed and intertwined to their nationality that it’s the only thing that defines them, and they themselves feel a sense of shame due to something that had nothing to do with them, that they do not condone, purely because they were born in the same country as the perpetrators.

I mean, there’s a word for that, when you group everyone together based purely on where they were born, and feel they are all responsible and representative of the actions of the few.

@Oblomov21

"Don't pretend it's not racist here."

Getting fed up now.

Not a single poster here has said it's not!

You're getting fed up? Imagine how black and brown people feel...

@Secondbellini

What is the point of calling out something which everyone on here agrees is wrong?

How do you know everyone agrees it’s wrong if they won’t call it out?

[quote FootballisgoingtoRome]@Pottedpalm sweep sweep[/quote]
Am I meant to understand that?

People ARE calling it out! They are just refusing to be held personally responsible!

• GrandmasCat I don’t give a shit what happens in other countries, I just know that, only a decade ago, England was one of the most tolerant countries in the world. It is a shame to see what it has become over the last few years of the Tories exploiting differences for political gains.

I am ashamed and saddened because of what we are losing, that tolerance and multiculturalist, what happens in other countries doesn’t erase that.*

While I agree with your view of the Tories, football has always had these elements and these issues, despite who is in government.