So embarrassed to be English today

[UpSlyDown]

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

A lot of the racism was from organised political gangs abroad trying to divide us.

They will not succeed.

They will if the 'woke' politically-correct trouble-makers saying 'all English WHITE people should be ashamed of themselves' have anything to do with it!!!

And I agree, I do believe the vast amount of racism on social media especially, is orchestrated by far right factions. Because, as I said, earlier, I don't know a SINGLE PERSON who behaves like this in real life, OR who would post racist shit on their twitter or facebook account.

So the 'English white people should be ashamed today' brigade can bore off!!!

J712adrian - Are you always ashamed by other people's behaviour?

@Mabelene

More bullshit by people who appear to be determined to talk down their own country. Do us all a favour and go live somewhere else if you hate England so much.

I did, years ago, haven’t been back for almost 20 years, and don’t regret a thing

I’m glad people who dislike it so much leave

So many move here and stay, like me and loads of friends. Very popular thing to do in early twenties.

I don’t recognise this self hatred or purported hatred from other countries. Really is alien

Why are those saying they do feel ashamed not allowed to have an opinion without being ridiculed? They’re just being shouted down because they don’t hold the right opinion.

@HmmmmmmInteresting

I'd love to see how far this team would have got if all the black players had refused to play.

Who knows. They obviously would have qualified given the strength in depth and competition for places in the squad, but the players of colour have been amazing and brought so much not just on the field but off it too with their contribution to a fairer game.

Not sure why you’re asking this tbh. You presumably accept the abhorrent racism which permeates our society and has shown its ugly face this tournament is also a problem abroad so are we comparing our all white squad with the squads of all the other countries whose black players refused to take part? Eg France without Mbappe and Pogba?

Surely people who come on the internet saying they feel ashamed want to feel shame?! Isn’t that the whole point? To invite ridicule and derision because you consider yourself shameful?

Unless of course they are not actually ashamed at all and are actually just virtue signalling.

the 'woke' politically-correct trouble-makers

This is verging into comedic language, but the sort that isn't really funny at all.

What 'trouble' are these people making exactly?

@Meraas

Why are those saying they do feel ashamed not allowed to have an opinion without being ridiculed? They’re just being shouted down because they don’t hold the right opinion.

It is a bit ridiculous to feel ashamed of your nationality because of the behaviour of a minority of people who live in the same country of you, especially when that behaviour is replicated across most of Europe.

@Meraas

Why are those saying they do feel ashamed not allowed to have an opinion without being ridiculed? They’re just being shouted down because they don’t hold the right opinion.

I don't care if other people feel ashamed (doesn't really make sense but that is irrelevant), it's the narrative that I should do as well, purely because I am English too.

a PP has said it is English people like myself who don't feel shame in being from England that is the reason racism exists which is ridiculous.

I'd love to see how far this team would have got if all the black players had refused to play.

We’re a far better team with them and not just due to results, but a diverse team represents something better IMO. So I’m not sure why the question unless you think particular posters would want them not to play or something else

@Youarestillintherunning

Yes, I'm absolutely ashamed to be British today. We showed our true colours last night and frankly it's embarrassing.

We? Whose we you may have done something you are ashamed of I didn't 🙄

To judge by the whataboutery, lots of posters here are very eager for England to win a race to the bottom.

More bullshit by people who appear to be determined to talk down their own country. Do us all a favour and go live somewhere else if you hate England so much.

So those of us who dislike the racism and thuggery we face in our country and call it out should move somewhere else. That is the problem it shouldn’t be the victims have to leave it should be addressing the racism and thuggery and stamping it out once and for all.

@j712adrian

The people on here who aren't ashamed of being English for the disgusting behaviour seen are the reason why the team takes the knee for BLM. Why, even the Sky Team and Martyn Tyler were attacked and hounded out of their studio at Wembley.

The miscreants are criminals who should be brought to justice. Of course, they're also the reason for why the players felt nervous taking the kicks - because they knew what the consequences of missing would be. The players were right.

what happened to the sky team and Martyn Tyler at Wembley? the England team should not be making a political statement in taking the knee to a political marxist organisation which belongs in America

There are better ways to highlight racist behaviour in football - there is 'kick it out' movement.
The continual 'taking of the knee' at the start of a match exacerbates the behaviour of the thugs who inhabit the terraces in a football game. It is setting back race relations by decades.

Racist, violent, misogynistic, drunken thugs aren’t any of those things because they’re English. They are like that because they are arseholes. They’d be like that if they were Welsh, Spanish, Australian or Canadian. They’re using football as an excuse to show that behaviour, just as those same people are using Brexit as an excuse to be open about their racism. If football disappeared overnight, violence would increase around rugby or cricket. It’s disgusting and absolutely shouldn’t be tolerated under any circumstances. No excuses should be made for them at all and the full force of the law should be thrown at them every single time.

But I’m not ashamed to be English because of these idiots, any more than I’m ashamed to be English because some of you are struggling to understand that the actions of a few thousand thugs aren’t representing the millions of the rest of us.

This country is far from perfect and we’ve got a long way to go before it is. There is no country in the world that doesn’t have problems. We’re a lot better than some and a lot worse than others. What I am proud of is living in a country where the vast, vast majority of normal, decent people consider this behaviour to be abhorrent and who enjoy living in a multi cultural society. That’s the section of English society I proudly identify with and align myself with.

‘What 'trouble' are these people making exactly?’

As far as I understand it, they caused rifts across the Labour Party, and to a lesser degree Lib Dem and Greens, by focussing on identity politics and expressing contempt for working class culture, economic issues, geographical inequalities and promoted anti- semitism.

This led to a massive loss of voters and failure on the left.

Criticisms of popular culture tied to accusations that Englishness is shameful are seen as tied to that group of people who see themselves as morally superior.

I think that’s the general argument, isn’t it?

They form one side of a culture war, which Tories then try to argue against to win votes.

There are no winners in this argument . It sad that you seem to think that . We will never win against racism and thuggery until we call it out . Saying it happens worse in other countries is whataboutery. No racism and thuggery is not an exclusive problem to England. But it is a massive problem in England . Sweeping it under the carpet as others are worse helps no one

Why do you think saying you are not responsible for the actions of others is ‘sweeping it under the carpet’

Why are those saying they do feel ashamed not allowed to have an opinion without being ridiculed? They’re just being shouted down because they don’t hold the right opinion.

Partly because that’s how debate works. Just as many people who agree with them are speaking out and defending their views. And partly because they are suggesting that being English is a bad thing due to the actions of a vile minority. It’s not.

@NiceGerbil

The video of English supporters attacking Italian fans including getting one on the ground and then 3 men were kicking him was awful

On Wembley ground and before the match FFS (I don't think I got the wrong end of the stick there).

The BBC don't have that clip from what I can see and their reports seem not to take mention that aspect, more vandalism and the police being there.

Hooliganism appears to be back. Yay.

It was English fans kicking another English fan during the pre-match violence when lots of people without tickets tried to get in. According to the print press.

@mathanxiety

To judge by the whataboutery, lots of posters here are very eager for England to win a race to the bottom.

It isn’t whataboutery. If the thread has been about whether the behaviour of the football fans is acceptable or not, and people have said but other fans do it too, then yeah that’s whataboutery.

However the entire premise of the thread is whether or not you can link being English with this behaviour, which makes whether or not it happens in other places as well the absolute crux of the matter

@FootballisgoingtoRome

Wow *@ChainJane* you actually believe that racism isn’t a big thing to worry about wow just wow. I’m actually speakless.

‘Speakless’? Not quite. But repeating ‘Wow’ is pretty ineffectual too.

@Thekindofwindowsfaceslookinat

the 'woke' politically-correct trouble-makers

This is verging into comedic language, but the sort that isn't really funny at all.

What 'trouble' are these people making exactly?

Only on MN is being politically correct and not a racist seen as a bad thing. Can't cure schtoopid I guess.

@Pottedpalm sweep sweep

Gream the vid I saw they were attacking loads of people

No I don't know about the one they were kicking on the ground but I'd put money on him being an Italy supporter (which I might lose obv).

The vid I saw was shocking.

But yes they were out for a ruck and unlikely to be that interested as long as they got to kick some people in