So embarrassed to be English today

[UpSlyDown]

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

Excuse typos

me and my husband

online abuse

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the abuse is from foreign bot accounts who want any excuse to give successful young black men a kicking.

Men should be embarrassed at the behaviour of their sex - trashing the streets, fighting, going home and abusing their partners... This isn't limited to English men though. It's just your news sources are showing more English men.

Are you also ashamed to be English after all the Penalty that got England through to the final was a dive

Oh for goodness sake, it was checked on VAR. The whole point of VAR is to make sure that penalties were awarded correctly. Strange how non-experts who watch about one football match a year know more than officials who work in the game all the time.

“It’s not all fans” “it’s not all men” “it’s only banter” “I only wanted to take a selfie with him”.. .

From where I am looking this is simply looking an attitude that will use any outlet and any excuse.

Xenophobia, homophobia. Misogyny.
At the top of this iceberg sit a few hardcore believers. But the majority of this is below the surface: where behavior is repeatedly allowed, goes unchecked with minor acts and it grows unchecked until serious lines are crossed.

Media is partly to blame for this. But if we don’t challenge the small acts this is what we get.

If they had won, I’m pretty sure there would be equal amount of violence

@DasPepe

“It’s not all fans” “it’s not all men” “it’s only banter” “I only wanted to take a selfie with him”.. .

From where I am looking this is simply looking an attitude that will use any outlet and any excuse.

Xenophobia, homophobia. Misogyny.
At the top of this iceberg sit a few hardcore believers. But the majority of this is below the surface: where behavior is repeatedly allowed, goes unchecked with minor acts and it grows unchecked until serious lines are crossed.

Media is partly to blame for this. But if we don’t challenge the small acts this is what we get.

If they had won, I’m pretty sure there would be equal amount of violence

Do you do this stuff?

Who are you talking about people on this thread?

@TotorosCatBus

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the abuse is from foreign bot accounts who want any excuse to give successful young black men a kicking.

Men should be embarrassed at the behaviour of their sex - trashing the streets, fighting, going home and abusing their partners... This isn't limited to English men though. It's just your news sources are showing more English men.

Is the 38% rise of Domestic violence when England lose also down to foreign bots?

I don’t think some people commenting here are even reading the thread.

@igelkott2021

I wonder how many of those saying it's worse in Italy would be happy to travel with their DC in a train compartment with English football fans

I have no idea what it's like in Italy but no, I wouldn't travel with male English football fans because a subset of them are thuggish, loutish, drunken oafs.

I know what it's like in both countries. In Italy fans are escorted to and from stadiums (even at very low local levels) because of the violence that will happen if they don't. Games are frequently played behind closed doors and for certain fixtures, away fans cannot travel. There are roadblocks. I wouldn't want to travel with English fans or Italian ones. My dp (Italian) was amazed that the first time he went to a premier League match in the UK, the two groups of fans weren't segregated at all times like they would be here. I was recently interviewed by the press here about the difference between English and Italian violence/hooliganism. In England, it tends (though obviously that's not an absolute) to be the national side's fans, so by definition that news (rightly) gets seen and heard at an international level. In Italy the organized hooliganism and violence is more at town/city level. It's extremely well organized with rival gangs orchestrating much of it. Because it's violence on the streets between town A and town B, of course it doesn't tend to reach the international MSM unless someone actually gets killed. Which happens a couple of times a year.

@igelkott2021

Are you also ashamed to be English after all the Penalty that got England through to the final was a dive

Oh for goodness sake, it was checked on VAR. The whole point of VAR is to make sure that penalties were awarded correctly. Strange how non-experts who watch about one football match a year know more than officials who work in the game all the time.

Strange that you seem to think the Italy foul was a red when it was deemed a yellow by the ref who has worked as an official for years. These people who only watch one game .

Is the 38% rise of Domestic violence when England lose also down to foreign bots?

I meant the online abuse faced by the black players who missed penalties. The monkey, banana and pop emojis left by randoms.

I am in no doubt that there will be men from countries that aren't Italy or England who went home and beat their families.

Racism, however, is very much a part of life in England.

It is not all of England though, not even a sizeable % of English people have committed any of these crimes.

As a group we should certainly denounce them, hold them to account and convict where crimes are committed, but they are not us, not me and not most of England.

And we are not alone in the world with football violence, we are not alone in the world with racist prices, we are not alone in the world violent men, drunk men, abusive men. These things are in all walks of life around the globe, I don't see why we should be defined as a nation by our share of them, which I don't believe is any higher than any other country, no matter what those countries declare themselves.

Where are you from @FootballisgoingtoRome?

I am neither proud nor ashamed to be English. It never occurs to me. I don't walk around thinking I belong to "The English". I just get on with life. I hate thugs, rascists, hooligans like all decent / normal people do, obviously. Just get on with your life.

“Not all fans”, “not all English people”, not all men”, but these statements avoid the elephant in the room, don’t they. Large elements of football culture are toxic. Racism and violence are endemic. Not in the game itself, but in the fan culture that goes alongside it. It’s a culture that is heavily linked to toxic masculinity. I have never heard of a female football hooligan, from England or from anywhere else. It’s not an English problem, it’s a male problem.
So no, I’m not ashamed, because I’m not male and toxic male culture is not of my making. I’m fucking angry that this is yet another expression of it though, and that it never gets properly addressed because the values that underpin it are so tightly and repulsively entwined with human culture.

As a non- English person living in England there is a lot for the English to be proud of as well as things tone ashamed of. The vast majority of English hail players like Marcus Rashford as heroes (rightly so). Your team did well. Yes racist abuse is awful but not all perpetrators were even English.

There is good and bad in every country - English are no worse than anyone else.

@Cavalierqueen I'm interested to know where you live? You agree with PP about being embarrassed to be English? You're dreading the world cup and live near a stadium? So presume you live in Qatar? That pillar of modern, equal rights for all society.... If that's the case you've got more to be embarrassed about than being English....

@NursePye

Where are you from *@FootballisgoingtoRome*?

I live in England

[quote morepizzapls]@HmmmmmmInteresting the level of ignorance in your last post is astounding. Just so you know, this country and the fanbase that myself and this poster is referring to, would not necessarily identify as white.[/quote]
Riiiiiiiight. So we say it's an English problem and people shout lots of countries around the world are racist. So I say it's a white problem and you find my post distasteful. You are the ignorant one.

You may feel ashamed to be English but, if the number of people trying to get into the country is anything to go by, this is still the best country in the world in which to live.

@Boood

“Not all fans”, “not all English people”, not all men”, but these statements avoid the elephant in the room, don’t they. Large elements of football culture are toxic. Racism and violence are endemic. Not in the game itself, but in the fan culture that goes alongside it. It’s a culture that is heavily linked to toxic masculinity. I have never heard of a female football hooligan, from England or from anywhere else. It’s not an English problem, it’s a male problem. So no, I’m not ashamed, because I’m not male and toxic male culture is not of my making. I’m fucking angry that this is yet another expression of it though, and that it never gets properly addressed because the values that underpin it are so tightly and repulsively entwined with human culture.

Absolutely agree with this.

Yes but you clearly hate the English and are stirring the shit with glee. You must be one of those non-English non-racist, non-xenophobic, non-partisan utopians who are always starting these goady threads?

YABVU a few idiots don't represent England.

@TotorosCatBus

Is the 38% rise of Domestic violence when England lose also down to foreign bots?

I meant the online abuse faced by the black players who missed penalties. The monkey, banana and pop emojis left by randoms.

I am in no doubt that there will be men from countries that aren't Italy or England who went home and beat their families.

Yes I have no doubt that it happens in other countries . But it’s the 38% rise in our County when England lose that we need to not ignore. Children go hungry in other countries and die of hungry . Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t focus on ending child poverty here because it’s worse elsewhere . Minimising what happens with hooligans here because it’s worse elsewhere is whataboutery and part of the problem .

@NursePye

Yes but you clearly hate the English and are stirring the shit with glee. You must be one of those non-English non-racist, non-xenophobic, non-partisan utopians who are always starting these goady threads?

I clearly hate the English when I am English sure thing . Just because I won’t sweep our problems under the carpet and pretend it doesn’t happen .