Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder who these hooligans are?

142 replies

Sandinmyknickers · 12/07/2021 11:45

I'm sure we are all sickened by some of the footage and images of horrendous, violent antics by some England fans last night. I really dont have the words to describe them- thugs, hooligans, vandals, Neanderthals...take your pick

But AIBU to ask...are any of them your DS or DP/DH? And if so, what are your thoughts on their behaviour?

Everyone seems to be outraged at their behaviour.. but yet noone seems to know them? They all must be someones DS or maybe DP surely? They must have families? And looking at the footage there were loads of them?!

Did any of your male family members (I know there were some women but it is overwhelmingly male) go out causing havoc on the streets last night throwing bottles, fighting, getting naked etc (not just general pub beers)? How do you feel about it? I genuinely cant get my head around it. Are they respectable people normally?

OP posts:
Feelingoktoday · 12/07/2021 17:15

@Boood

Because in our culture, there are two ways for men to express their anger that other men turn a blind eye to. The first is getting drunk and abusing women, and the second is getting drunk and abusing an opposing football team and its fans. I’m pretty sure that there’s an enormous overlap between the two, so the answer to the question is, these men are everywhere. And the men around them stay out of it because they don’t see the problem, or don’t see it as their business, and the women appease them so that they don’t become the target.
Exactly this which is what I posted earlier. If men turned to their mates and said stop that sexist racist behaviour perhaps things might change. But they generally do not.
EverythingWillFallInLine · 12/07/2021 17:22

They're pretty fucking intimidating in full flow and not amenable to even robust remonstration though.

A few years ago I was going past a ground some time after the match was over and there was only really security there wrapping things up. One of them chucked the remains of his lunch on the floor and an older woman - also passing by - politely (and she was polite) asked him not to. He completely turned on her and she only got away because his mates held him back. I had two kids in a double buggy and I honestly thought he'd go for the lot of us and he was a big fucking guy. And that was bloody security. In a small town, middle of the afternoon. With people around. They don't give a shit, that lot, they really don't.

plominoagain · 12/07/2021 17:30

I have policed many football matches in the last 25 years or so , as both my boroughs had London football clubs on them , first at Chelsea , then another club . Arrested many people for fighting , racist abuse , escorted segregated fans away from the grounds with a massive police presence because you knew they were hell bent on a fight . And they came from all walks of life . Plumbers. Postmen , city traders , banking , estate agents. Nursing , accountants , all ages , all kinds . The match where one guy broke my hand and tried kicking me in the head ? Surveyor.

It's a sobering thought that the Chelsea Headhunters are now in their 60's and 70's.

doesparentingsuck · 12/07/2021 17:51

@plominoagain there you go. I think people wish/hope/want to believe it's the unemployed people of society doing this (even it was I don't know what that changed) but rest assured the people are from ALL walks of life - educated/uneducated the lot.

MrsTrustice · 12/07/2021 17:57

@britnay.

Calm down! It’s a public forum! She was talking generally. I don’t she she was posting with your specific circumstances in mind

tomorrowalready · 12/07/2021 18:22

How does the phrase and mindset of fans having suffered x years of hurt by their team not winning mesh with a propensity to antisocial, vile, criminal behaviour? I don't follow footballl, did not watch anyone of thes matches but having lived all my life in the Uk have had football culture thrust upon me. The first I heard this phrase was in relation I believe to Leicester winning some cup. Heard it on the radio some fan crying, I thought it was a joke. Apparantly not. Heard it so much recently before I could switch off whatever programme discussion was on. It seems to me to be reflective of an entitled frame of mind that can turn vicious when thwarted.

BewareTheBeardedDragon · 12/07/2021 19:13

@doesparentingsuck

OP I have been thinking the SAME thing everyone so quick to condemn the behaviour and disassociate themselves from these people but they have families and jobs and wives and children and mothers - someone must know something about this? And be quietly complicit. Who are you? Speak up!
I wonder if they have fathers too. Or if it's only the mothers who are 'quietly complicit'

Having been with an abusive man, who - while not a football fan - he as quite capable of changing from a seemingly reasonable nice guy to a raging monster in the drop of a hat, and not only towards me, I can tell you that no-one could stop him, or tell him he was doing anything wrong. He was just an unstoppable force and despite 'remorse' it happened again and again.

It wasn't his mothers fault, or his sisters, or mine, or his innocent Childrens. It wasn't the fault of his nice friends. The only people who held any culpability for his behaviour were his equally unstable brother (his other siblings were all fine) and some unsavoury friends who joined and egged him on in his behaviour. A huge swath of his friendship group would never have believed he could behave in this way because he just didn't show them that side of himself.

I do think this is a question that society as a whole needs to ponder how to effectively deal with, but I don't think blaming the families of these men is helpful in any way.

BewareTheBeardedDragon · 12/07/2021 19:14

Ok, sorry - posted that before reading the next comment after it. The rest of my point stands

doesparentingsuck · 12/07/2021 19:49

@BewareTheBeardedDragon you've COMPLETELY missed my point.

For a start the second after typing this is f you see my post directly above - it included a fathers.

Secondly the point I'm making is no one ever seems to have racists in their circles, know of any, hear of any and it's completely BS.

You're not telling me anyone on MN doesn't hear casual racism, friends or family calling people the N word or the P word. And stay silent on it pretend it's not happening.

That's my point - it's not blaming those people I'm just purely confused how none ever seems to witness racism? Yet it seems to be happening so frequently! These people belong to someone's circles - so whose???

BewareTheBeardedDragon · 12/07/2021 20:37

@doesparentingsuck yes - I hadn't seen your next post before posting mine and acknowledged this in my next point.

I think my point is aimed at the violence rather than the racism. I realise that the two are often hand in hand, and I wholeheartedly agree that racism must be challenged on every level, every time where it is safe to do so. I think that is a responsibility of everyone in society. I just find it hard to read the posts that appear to be blaming the families of these men, when I know that living with or being closely connected with a violent man makes it difficult if not impossible to challenge him on any point at all.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 12/07/2021 20:38

Secondly the point I'm making is no one ever seems to have racists in their circles, know of any, hear of any and it's completely BS

Wait, no…I didn’t say that

The OP just asked if family members had been violent etc (i may have missed where she said any racism)

doesparentingsuck · 12/07/2021 21:01

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer would racism not come into the category of being a thug? oP wasn't specific about violence either

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 12/07/2021 21:08

Did any of your male family members (I know there were some women but it is overwhelmingly male) go out causing havoc on the streets last night throwing bottles, fighting, getting naked etc (not just general pub beers)? How do you feel about it? I genuinely cant get my head around it. Are they respectable people normally?

I was answering this question specifically

But i didnt say i dont have racists in my circle, i know of some from other friends, ive heard of racists, ive had relations talk about the racism shown to them and I don’t think racism is bullshit

MsAwesomeDragon · 12/07/2021 21:11

I know a couple of them. I teach their kids. They aren't my friends or family. Their kids (teenagers) are some of the most challenging I teach, and all thought it was a great lark last night causing chaos. Theirs was a very small, local amount of chaos, because it's quite a rural area, but they'd have been part of a mob if there were enough people to form one.

MsAwesomeDragon · 12/07/2021 21:13

And mil is racist, but she's not the sort to go out and be violent about it, she's more the type who froths and rants to her family and friends assuming that we all think the same way she does. Then acts all wounded when we call her out on it.

Flugbustingbiz · 12/07/2021 22:07

I think pp said it upthread but I find the 'othering' of football fans on this thread odd. Like these violent men are not 'real fans' that 'real' fans don't act like this. Trying to disown them won't make them go away, or make people think - oh well that's alright then, actual real fans don't do that. From the outside people just see football fans.

Macncheeseballs · 12/07/2021 22:21

Imagine being married to one of the twats who stuck flares up their arses

EverythingWillFallInLine · 12/07/2021 23:58

I don't think anyone thinks it will go away. For my part I was trying to explain the intricate nonlinear relationship between the gangs, the clubs and the fans and how it's a product of a number of different social phenomena that is more complex than "omg thugs why doesn't anyone stop them". I wasn't "othering" or pretending the problem only exists elsewhere.

Incidentally that's also the approach the fa has taken, with a certain degree of success although there has been recent pushback.

As for the wider point about calling racism out I think lots of us do that but it takes time to rewrite entrenched attitudes.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 13/07/2021 00:01

@DrSbaitso

The only objection that mine had about the game was that I spent all evening watching it (he didn't), then it lasted an hour longer than expected, so he didn't get sex last night.

"Cock blocked by the fucking Euros" was how he put it.

I can't imagine that any woman, or indeed man, related to any of the thugs is going to be pleased about it...

Bleurgh. He sounds gross
Wearywithteens · 13/07/2021 00:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

SourAppleChew · 13/07/2021 02:11

Nope. Men shouldn’t be calling out other men’s behaviour anymore than women should be calling out other women’s behaviour.

Good old nice Bob down the street isn’t responsible for hooligan thug Robbie.

People are individuals and behave as individuals.

Amen.

SourAppleChew · 13/07/2021 02:14

It’s also my experience that the types of women these men date are usually pretty racist themselves. It’s just harder to spot as they’re less outwardly lairy.

I spoke to quite a few working class women when I lived in Birmingham who told me “I don’t really like Indians”. One was an elderly neighbour, another the mum of a workmate (bit of a lad), and a fair few others at pubs and parties etc.

Thirtyrock39 · 13/07/2021 09:27

@SourAppleChew

It’s also my experience that the types of women these men date are usually pretty racist themselves. It’s just harder to spot as they’re less outwardly lairy.

I spoke to quite a few working class women when I lived in Birmingham who told me “I don’t really like Indians”. One was an elderly neighbour, another the mum of a workmate (bit of a lad), and a fair few others at pubs and parties etc.

Racism isn't unique to working class brummies!! It's everywhere and as others have said really important to not 'other' these actions. The abusive tweeting and vandalism in my option begins with 'all lives matter' attitudes but is a more extreme and much easier to condone without having to confront how racism is still so ingrained in society .
WeatherSystems · 13/07/2021 09:34

They're everywhere. Often hiding in plain sight. People can transform scarily into someone else, someone far more dangerous, with alcohol involved and heightened emotions of a football match, the baked-in 'us versus them' mentality, it's an outlet for aggression and a recipe for disaster.

My brother is one. We no longer have contact for several years now, after it came out he was abusing his wife in front of their children (and when they were alone). He's a really violent, scary man and always has been. As a child we had the police over constantly as he was in trouble for various crimes, hooliganism was a major one. He would go out, drink, and then start on anyone who looked at him the wrong way. Got some convictions, at one point he was banned from attention any football match and detained at an airport for trying. He lived and breathed football and was involved in our local team's 'firm', a gang of hardcore fans who were pure hooligans. Pictures of him invading pitches, throwing crap around, hitting other fans were in the paper. He put people in hospital more than a few times.

For him it was an aspect of his wider personality, an angry, disturbed, damaged man who'd grown up in a home witnessing violence and continued to inflict it on others as a grown up. Hooliganism was a way for him of showing his loyalty and love for the club but also an excuse to mete out violence with an 'excuse'.

WeatherSystems · 13/07/2021 09:35

Oh and it goes without saying I think that he's a massive racist, been done on charges for racially motivated violence. The sort who doesn't want his kid to go to the local school cos it's too full of 'pas and ni*s'.