To wonder who these hooligans are?

[Sandinmyknickers]

I'm sure we are all sickened by some of the footage and images of horrendous, violent antics by some England fans last night. I really dont have the words to describe them- thugs, hooligans, vandals, Neanderthals...take your pick

But AIBU to ask...are any of them your DS or DP/DH? And if so, what are your thoughts on their behaviour?

Everyone seems to be outraged at their behaviour.. but yet noone seems to know them? They all must be someones DS or maybe DP surely? They must have families? And looking at the footage there were loads of them?!

Did any of your male family members (I know there were some women but it is overwhelmingly male) go out causing havoc on the streets last night throwing bottles, fighting, getting naked etc (not just general pub beers)? How do you feel about it? I genuinely cant get my head around it. Are they respectable people normally?

Thugs are always thugs. They aren't decent men magically transformed by football. They are the loudmouthed yobs out on the piss. The ones getting pissed in magaluf, fighting and groping women.
Football is their excuse of the day. It's got nothing to do with the match itself and everything to do with the fact they are nasty, inadequate yobs who like to fight.

@Sandinmyknickers YANBU. This behaviour is putrid and vile, but I am actually wondering if the majority of it is orchestrated by far right factions, who have recruited people to make up twitter accounts specifically to abuse people of colour. Because I don't know a soul in real life who behaves this way, OR posts this kind of grim and nasty shit on social media. Not ONE.

I know it happens (and it HAS happened,) but I just don't know who these people are, and as I said, I am very suspicious about it all, and wonder if much of the racist abuse is orchestrated by far-right racist hate groups.

I really genuinely believe that the majority of white people are not racist, and all this shit is boiling my piss, because it's painting us all as racist bigots, and most of us are not.

Most of us are thoroughly disgusted and upset at the abuse aimed at the young black England players at last night's EuroCup final, and do NOT fit into the category of racist gammon, as some people have called white people today.

It is a minority of white people who are like this, thank God, but even ONE white person behaving like this, is one too many.

I really feel for these young black football players, and any other person of colour who receives racist abuse. But it's out of order to say or imply that all white people are racist and bigoted (as some people are saying on twitter, and have said on here today..) As I said, the majority of white people are disgusted by this behaviour.

Not mine, but I am praying that the police find out who was involved and managed to make some arrests. Seeing the footage of Engliah fans attacking black people and Italian fans last night has honestly heartbroken me. It goes to show how close to the surface racism in this country really is. Absolutely devastating to see.

I've posted about this on another thread but been ignored so I'll share what I know here instead.

Hooligans are gang members. The gangs are firms associated with clubs. When football clubs were first established they were pretty closely affiliated with the finances of clubs. These finances tended to be from non establishment sources. (Remember, this was a time when "establishment" sources of money were pretty fucking ropey too what with slavery and all.) The firms were a way of protecting interests. They're more loosely affiliated now.

The same happened in other countries too. This isn't just an English thing.

So in Scotland you get the orange firms, in Italy the fascist firms, in Russia the neo nazi firms, in Colombia and Brazil the drug firms etc.

Hooligans are separate from fans. There is sometimes a crossover of personnel but the set up and motivations are different.

Hooligans are kind of like mercenaries in a way. Just as a mercenary will fight for a flag, a hooligan will fight for a club. It's the fighting that counts though. It's about territorial establishment and intimidation.

The club hooligans funnel into the national hooligans ie it's some of them but not all of them.

The FA here has actually done a decent job of rooting them out. They're way more of a problem in former Eastern Bloc countries and the Balkans. And ofc in some parts of South America they'll actually kill players and not just attack each other.

DH, and both young adult DS's were here watching at home with me last night. My lads are more likely to be the victims of thuggery than participate in it.
Both are mixed race, one is also gay.
They know exactly the demographic of men who would be involved in these incidents. The same ones who were the bullies at school.

My DS is 8 so certainly wasn't him. I'm single and divorced, my ex husband does not like football and was working yesterday driving the fans around on the trains. I am NC with my dad, so I'd have no idea if he was there, he does have form for fighting but doubt he'd be in London.

@FloconDeNeige

So, this is actually women’s fault, then? WTAF? Can’t men take responsibility for their own atrocious behaviour?

What the hell are you talking about? Did you read the OP as your answer has nothing to do with it.

[quote FlaminEckVera]@Sandinmyknickers YANBU. This behaviour is putrid and vile, but I am actually wondering if the majority of it is orchestrated by far right factions, who have recruited people to make up twitter accounts specifically to abuse people of colour. Because I don't know a soul in real life who behaves this way, OR posts this kind of grim and nasty shit on social media. Not ONE.

I know it happens (and it HAS happened,) but I just don't know who these people are, and as I said, I am very suspicious about it all, and wonder if much of the racist abuse is orchestrated by far-right racist hate groups.

I really genuinely believe that the majority of white people are not racist, and all this shit is boiling my piss, because it's painting us all as racist bigots, and most of us are not.

Most of us are thoroughly disgusted and upset at the abuse aimed at the young black England players at last night's EuroCup final, and do NOT fit into the category of racist gammon, as some people have called white people today.

It is a minority of white people who are like this, thank God, but even ONE white person behaving like this, is one too many.

I really feel for these young black football players, and any other person of colour who receives racist abuse. But it's out of order to say or imply that all white people are racist and bigoted (as some people are saying on twitter, and have said on here today..) As I said, the majority of white people are disgusted by this behaviour.[/quote]
White people don't need defending, you don't need to proclaim that you're not gammon, if you weren't spewing racist vitriol at the black players, then they're not talking about you. Acting injured by anti-racism doesn't do much to ease tension, and your insistence that it is a minority sounds like a denial of the racism and xenophobia here. You might not see or experience it, but my family, and all the other ethnic minorities have a very clear view of just how prevalent racism is in the UK.

I think that a lot of last night's trouble wasn't organised gangs (although I absolutely agree that gangs/firms were a massive cause of violence in the 80's 90's until they were cracked down on hard - I knew boys in my class at school who got sucked into our local team's firm, and one ended up spending time in prison as a result).

A lot of last night was sheer thuggery
As I said upthread, I know two boys who were there. I get on with them fine, but they have no respect for their parents or teachers. I am certain that my friend (one boy's mum, who is an absolutely lovely person) has no clue where he was, as he would've lied to her, but she always defends him anyway.

Think your classic "son can do no wrong" on the primary school threads. By secondary, he was always in detention, but not backed up at home because it was "always the teacher's fault".

Now, at 16, he's running around Wembley, pissed, until all hours, no doubt getting carried away with the violence.

Yeah everyone knows but nobody knows them. Strange, that.

I've seen that a few have been outed on Twitter for disgusting racial remarks. One in particular a manager who works for Savills - racist comments, and 'jokes' about Brit wives being battered after the game.

It's men across the board, even though the powers that be would have us believe it's a 'limited intelligence lower working class' thing (not my descriptive, saw it written somewhere in relation to this).

Nobody's going to call out their dad/son/brother/nephew/cousin and so on, they'll go with the usual that it was self defence or just lads letting off steam it's all part of the beautiful game

Btw when I say more loosely affiliated, I mean the clubs don't condone/need them but they're still around because they're a self perpetuating movement that's been there long enough that they have their own momentum, traditions, codes, shibboleths etc.

[quote ParsleyDill]**@MotionActivatedDog* and @AnotherKrampus*, but why are these civil servants, teachers and radiographers you list so unafraid of any employment consequences (which could involve dismissal for gross misconduct, breach of contract, impact on credibility of being able to discharge their role etc) for their violent and/or antisocial behaviour, given that they're clearly relatively invested in their careers?[/quote]
If love to know! Arrogance? There’s definitely that in abundance. The idea that they’ll always land on their feet even if they do get sacked they’ll sort themselves out with something else just as cushy. One person I know has been to prison for a racially aggravated assault. It wasn’t football related but same type of person as the others I’ve described. He was employed prior to going to prison, while he was inside his father started up a business doing the same work the son was doing before and when the son came out it was all handed over and he is making an absolute fortune as a business man with his own team of employees. Getting convicted and sent to prison actually improved his life and income. He hasn’t changed as a person though. Same arsehole he always was.

@Iknowtheanswer agree that there's always a crossover in personnel - some fans display elements of hooliganism if minded, some hooligans settle down and become legit fans.

But there's still an element of shout goes out, trouble goes down, and that's from the firms.

My DH is appalled by this behaviour. He's a huge football fan. Pre children he used to be part of the supporters club and had attended many World Cup and Euro tournaments over the years around the world. He has a few beers, he sings daft chants, he swaps 'banter' with friends regarding different teams that they support. What he doesn't do is behave like a thug or abuse anyone.

He's disgusted that as an England fan now he wouldn't dream of taking our children to a stadium to watch a game. He'll likely never share the game he loves with them (if they wanted to go, they're before still little atm) like his Dad did with him as a child because he (rightly) doesn't consider it a safe or appropriate environment for them.

We've just been talking about the behaviour of the 'fans' (they're not fans) and the abhorrent abuse that the team have suffered. Honestly in his circle of friends I do not know one of them, even the much more rowdy and juvenile ones - of which there are a few - who would damage property, abuse anyone or hurt anyone. They just want to go to the games, have fun and come home in one piece at the end of it.

I don't think these idiots are the norm for fans. They're thugs and reprobates looking for an excuse to behave badly. Obviously they must have families but to be honest if they behave like that publicly then their families and social circles are likely (not definitely!) not too bothered by this sort of thing and probably join them.

I doubt very much if any of the bad guys lead moral and upstanding lives away from football

I think you would be surprised how many of them do lead ‘respectable’ lives. Causing trouble at football matches is their idea of recreation.

I think that people like to assume these thugs are from some kind of marginalized group - unemployed, poorly educated, mindless vandals. Some of them will be. But some will be professional family men who hold down full time jobs. It is easier to see them as 'the other' the we can all distance ourselves from them - but they are not. They may include people that live on our street, work in our building or belong to our families.

Just look at the man who harassed Chris Witty - he was an estate agent. As app has said it costs money to but football tickets, travel to football matches and buy that much alcohol. If we pretend that only unemployed, illiterate men are hooligans then will allow those who are not to slip under the radar.

@iamtopazmortmain

I think that people like to assume these thugs are from some kind of marginalized group - unemployed, poorly educated, mindless vandals. Some of them will be. But some will be professional family men who hold down full time jobs. It is easier to see them as 'the other' the we can all distance ourselves from them - but they are not. They may include people that live on our street, work in our building or belong to our families.

Just look at the man who harassed Chris Witty - he was an estate agent. As app has said it costs money to but football tickets, travel to football matches and buy that much alcohol. If we pretend that only unemployed, illiterate men are hooligans then will allow those who are not to slip under the radar.

This!

People need to stop with “othering” and “they’re not fans”- it’s denial. These people are from your own streets, your own workplaces, your own football clubs, your own families.

Thanks so much for all the replies- there are some really thought provoking points. I agree that sadly it does seem like maybe a lot of denial or writing it off as 'boys will be boys ', and the points made that maybe some of these mens partners or families are scared of them/abused is heartbreaking.
I agree with the points that it's easy to just write them off as unemployed yobs (not that theres anything wrong with being unemployed or on low pay mind!), but the truth is likely a much wider cross section of society and otherwise 'respectable' family men and white collar workers make up a large proportion. I also saw about the guy from Savills who was identified following his racist tweets. I hope all of their employers find out and they have to face the music

Watch Promising Young Woman - same idea, but about sexual assault. Who are the people who do it? Most of them feel they are perfectly nice good people, and their friends and family would agree with that.

This is it.

Appalling men.

@iamtopazmortmain

I think that people like to assume these thugs are from some kind of marginalized group - unemployed, poorly educated, mindless vandals. Some of them will be. But some will be professional family men who hold down full time jobs. It is easier to see them as 'the other' the we can all distance ourselves from them - but they are not. They may include people that live on our street, work in our building or belong to our families.

Just look at the man who harassed Chris Witty - he was an estate agent. As app has said it costs money to but football tickets, travel to football matches and buy that much alcohol. If we pretend that only unemployed, illiterate men are hooligans then will allow those who are not to slip under the radar.

Agreed- thank you for helping verbalize what was perhaps the fear/feeling that made me start the thread

That was agreeing with remy3

@VettiyaIruken

Thugs are always thugs. They aren't decent men magically transformed by football. They are the loudmouthed yobs out on the piss. The ones getting pissed in magaluf, fighting and groping women. Football is their excuse of the day. It's got nothing to do with the match itself and everything to do with the fact they are nasty, inadequate yobs who like to fight.

Completely agree! My neighbour is a dickhead, yesterday the shouting and vandalism was about football but come today it will be about something else.

As a society we need to start punishing bad behaviour instead of turning a blind eye. How often do people on here complain about others behaviour to be told they are being ridiculous to even think of reporting someone.

Also for the people asking why no one speaks up against partners, family members or friends who behave like this. I would. I absolutely would. If that was my DH, brother or Dad I would be raging, and I would tell them straight how utterly disgusting I found their behaviour.

The difference between me and some other women is that I'm not afraid that any of them would give me a backhand (or far worse) for daring to do so. Because they're not violent men, or abusers in any way. I could roar at DH (I don't, but I could) and he'd never raise a finger to me.

Not everyone is as fortunate.

@Itsprobablynotcominghome

The problem is that as a society we think these people are a tiny minority.

We sweep it away, blame social media, blame alcohol, blame lockdown, blame anything or anyone but ourselves.

But if we weren't the ones out causing trouble why would we blame ourselves?

The ones to blame were the ones out getting into fights and causing trouble.