AIBU to wish people could be more honest and accepting of honesty?

[LemonLemonLemon]

I realise I’m not about to change society, but I wish it was more acceptable to be straight with people. Probably my pet hate is white lies to avoid a slightly upsetting truth.

For example, if a friend doesn’t want to meet with me because they’d rather spend the day relaxing, they should be able to tell me that and I should accept that and move on. I know for a fact that a lot of people would lie about this, or if they told the truth it would upset the other person.

Why can’t we tell someone if an outfit doesn’t suit their shape, or if they’ve upset us and why?

I’m not saying everyone suddenly needs to become rude and blunt, you can still be honest with tact.

I lie at work a lot.

If I said what I thought I'd be sacked.

There's definitely a north south split. People in the south are more likely to pussy foot around. And if you move from one to the other it's hard, because you calibrate your reaction to local norms. So you move north and might worry people don't like you. Or you move south and have trouble because people find you too blunt. I'm not for hurting people, but sometimes you end up hurting people by sugar coating. And I can spend a load of time and energy trying to second guess what people really mean because I know they won't say it.

For example, if a friend doesn’t want to meet with me because they’d rather spend the day relaxing, they should be able to tell me that and I should accept that and move on. I know for a fact that a lot of people would lie about this, or if they told the truth it would upset the other person.

But that's not really about honesty - you are just assuming that you are a neutral party in this exchange. What if you had missed out on something else to see this friend, or if you were feeling really shit and were really looking forward to seeing your friend and if they cancel that will mean you spend the weekend alone. Is it ok for you to then be honest in return and say that you're pissed off that you passed up on something else or sad that they're ditching you when you really needed a friend?

Because I think that's why people normally lie - they don't mind cancelling, but they don't want to have to deal with the consequences of being honest about the reasons. A lie makes a more palatable alternative to saying 'I'd rather be alone than spend time with you' and adding that insult to the injury of the cancelled plans.

Sounds great in theory, doesn't it? But it just comes across as rude, nasty, selfish or as a personal rejection, because it mostly is. Stay polite.

@Clydesider Guess it depends on the sort of person you are. If I’d asked for a meet up and someone said ‘no thanks, I’m have a chill night’ I would not take offence at that, and would admire their honesty. If they said ‘no thanks I don’t like you’ then we’d probably not be friends in the first place. I genuinely think you can be honest without being rude.

One recent example was a friend who insisted in bringing her yappy dog to all our meet ups. No-one in the group said anything but they were clearly fed up with it. When she eventually asked if anyone minded that she brought the dog, everyone said ‘no it’s fine’ through gritted teeth. Except me. I did it as politely as I could but I did say

‘well since you ask, I’m not going to pretend I’m thrilled about it. And can you genuinely say you are enjoying this time with your friends whilst trying to control your dog? It’s very distracting. Is there no option to leave the dog at home?’

Of course she looked horrified but did say that she’d leave the dog with her partner in future as it was difficult to engage with the conversation. Afterwards the others quietly thanked me individually and said they had been thinking the same but were too polite to say. See that just pisses me off. I have to play bad cop because I’m the only one who will be honest.

But also, if someone is being honest, there is no need to overshare. If you can’t or don’t want to go to something just say ‘no thanks, I’ve got too much on’. Going into the minutiae of everything you’ve got to do fries my brain.

@Clydesider

Sounds great in theory, doesn't it? But it just comes across as rude, nasty, selfish or as a personal rejection, because it mostly is. Stay polite.

If you cannot be honest without being rude, nasty, selfish, then the problem lies with you. Most people manage to be straightforward without being all that.

Depends on what you mean by ‘honesty’.

The sort of people who pride themselves on ‘speaking their mind’ , regardless of whether it’s going to upset anybody, are not generally popular - I have an aunt like this.

Some nationalities - Scandis and Dutch are some who are noted for it - tend to be very ‘direct’, which can translate as plain rude in U.K. culture.
For myself I prefer the U.K. way.

@Clydesider

Sounds great in theory, doesn't it? But it just comes across as rude, nasty, selfish or as a personal rejection, because it mostly is. Stay polite.

'Stay polite. Keep lying.'

I just can't make any sense of this at all.

You don't have to be rude, or any of the other things you mentioned, to be honest.

It's disturbing how many on the thread think you do. It does explain why lying is so popular though.

I definitely value straightforwardness in friends. I think of some as my friends as extra precious really as others can't stand them. They are stalwarts imo.
I'm more of a smoother over, or was. It came from a place of trying to value others but I was accused of flattery, etc.
I've lost the necessary patience in recent years. Maybe it's the loss of oestrogen or something. Only half joking..

I have a good friend right now who I find slightly hard work on occasions as I know she prides herself on "managing" others emotions in situations.
I don't want to be managed thanks.🤷
But again it's not like she's trying to manipulate people to unpleasant ends. It's just her way. And a lot of people do like it so her formula is more successful than my less popular friends! ( And me. Guess I'm in the middle.)

I think the issue is not simply about "honesty" is it? I like transactional straightforward communication. I have no issue saying no to an invite or accepting an honest "I don't feel like socialising". I have a very honest and open relationship with the kids, and now they are all 12+ I don't have to pretend to believe in fairies or Father Christmas any more.

However with people I don't know well I don't always feel safe being completely open. Nor is it always appropriate. It can take time to trust people with truth. For example. I may keep to myself political opinions, feelings about religion or child rearing. I don't think someone struggling to implement controlled crying wants or needs to hear I co-slept and breast feed for years with my kids, even if they are asking what I did. I may feel strongly about something but that doesn't always mean I have to burden people with my feelings on topics, if they are in opposition with theirs unless it is a topic I feel is too important to remain neutral/ silent on.

Everyone has their perspective on life and can witness the same event and have a completely different account of it. So how can we say that honesty is the answer when we create our own versions of the truth? It may be discomforting to talk to someone and not know whether they really mean what they say, but even if they do mean it, the result isn't harmony. Outside a pub in a town centre their is a lot of unfiltered honest communication punching happening.

So I think honest communication is slightly different to being honest all the time about everything. It is more nuanced, until everyone in the world agrees with me about everything (which obviously would be marvellous and great for the world!) I will continue to be circumspect.

I love how straightforward and direct my son is (autistic and very pedantic), but he does lie. Generally to avoid being told off, he is terrible at it, but being autistic does not mean you get honesty all the time.

I'm Hungarian.
I don't do pretentious politeness.
What you see is what you get.

My friends & family know this and appreciate the freedom to be straightforward with me.

There's a school mum friend with whom we help each other out.
I fucking love that she texts me at 2pm to say "please pick up DD today, I just can't adult today" and I can say "pls pick up DS, I'm too cold to go out today"🤣
It's so nice to not have to make excuses, not have to worry about judgement and just be honest!

However with people I don't know well I don't always feel safe being completely open. Nor is it always appropriate. It can take time to trust people with truth. For example. I may keep to myself political opinions, feelings about religion or child rearing. I don't think someone struggling to implement controlled crying wants or needs to hear I co-slept and breast feed for years with my kids, even if they are asking what I did. I may feel strongly about something but that doesn't always mean I have to burden people with my feelings on topics, if they are in opposition with theirs unless it is a topic I feel is too important to remain neutral/ silent on

This is an important part of being honest, though. You're saying it as if it's different from honesty. There's never any need to voice your feelings about something unless there is a need. There's lots of times when it really doesn't matter what you think, or what I think, and so not saying anything is better, and maintains honesty.

None of the people on the thread who think honesty is best walks through town calling out at people 'You're ugly! And you, over there, you need to lose weight! And you... you smell!!'.

Whether to voice an unnecessary opinion is a matter of ego. Who is really going to give a flying fandoodle what you think? If it's somebody who is only going to care because it's something unpleasant about them, don't say anything. But if a friend directly asks you if they have bad breath (for example), there's no point saying 'no', when you could gently nod, and offer them some gum.

Maybe I am conflating the rude people I have met who proudly state "I am just being honest" with the people on this thread talking about honesty.

For me, Honest communication is not always the same as telling the truth. Truth is very subjective. Honesty for me is more about being very aware of who I am, being brutally honest with myself is very important. I am not always going to tell the "truth" in a social situation if it will harm or distress someone else. I will also not tell someone the truth just to make myself feel better. Life is more nuanced than that. I actually think I have more in common with the proponents of honest communication on this thread but we seem to describe our "truth" in different ways😂

Which is kind of my point.

Depends on who I’m talking to. Close friends I tend to be fairly blunt and say the real reason I’m not wanting to do something. Other less close friends I beat about the bush. My closest friend is very blunt: she will tell me that my hair needs dyed if I’m showing grey. Or that my tea is awful!

@osbertthesyrianhamster

Depends. If someone asks your opinion on their personal appearance, it's one thing but volunteering it is rude.

Fair enough, but there have been many threads on here where people have been criticised, even called a bitch or 'vile' for giving an honest answer.

@PairOfPears

I think it’s fine to give your opinion tactfully, especially when asked, but that’s not the same thing as saying the truth, is it?

This all depends on context. I consider honest and direct feedback from my work superiors to be very useful but walking into the pub and my friend saying ‘that outfit doesn’t suit your shape’ isn’t helpful, isn’t kind and also isn’t an objective truth.

No, but if you're getting dressed and you ask your friend whether it suits you, she should answer honestly. Once you're in the pub, it's true it's not helpful.

I don't get the appearance thing. If my friend asks if x dress looks good on her and it absolutely doesn't I will always say it. "X one doesn't suits you in my opinion, but the blue one is absolutely amazing on you!"

I think it's pretty shit making a mate walk around looking like a defective sausage (yes, I was in denial about my weight)😑

" If someone is ugly, do you think it's appropriate to tell them, just because it's honest?"

No, because they probably already know. However, it is also not appropriate to tell them they're beautiful. It won't help them and they'll know you're lying anyway.

"For example, if a friend doesn’t want to meet with me because they’d rather spend the day relaxing, they should be able to tell me that and I should accept that and move on. I know for a fact that a lot of people would lie about this, or if they told the truth it would upset the other person.

But that's not really about honesty - you are just assuming that you are a neutral party in this exchange. What if you had missed out on something else to see this friend, or if you were feeling really shit and were really looking forward to seeing your friend and if they cancel that will mean you spend the weekend alone. Is it ok for you to then be honest in return and say that you're pissed off that you passed up on something else or sad that they're ditching you when you really needed a friend?"

I understood that as the friend saying no to going out in the first place , rather than cancelling. Cancelling without a good reason is not on.

It's true that if someone says 'I don't want to go out because I prefer to sit in and relax' I would probably need more explanation e.g. this weekend, but another weekend I'd be up for it. If you decline an invitation for something quite boring, it does look like you just don't want to go, as if someone said 'I'm washing my hair'.

"I think it's pretty shit making a mate walk around looking like a defective sausage (yes, I was in denial about my weight)😑"

Oh, I'm sure you didn't look that bad! Only joking, we're being honest here, maybe you did!

I'm quite honest. It doesnt mean always saying everything I think, but somewhere along the way I came to thinking if your friends can't take it when you tell the truth they are probably not your friends.

"See that just pisses me off. I have to play bad cop because I’m the only one who will be honest."

That's happened to me as well. I was furious.

"Some nationalities - Scandis and Dutch are some who are noted for it - tend to be very ‘direct’, which can translate as plain rude in U.K. culture.
For myself I prefer the U.K. way."

I prefer directness. At least you know where you are. Nothing worse than a passive-aggressive seemingly polite statement that you smile at and then think to yourself 'hang one, she means...'. Then you feel humiliated as well as insulted.

I think if you ask a question then be prepared to accept the answer. Too many people get offended when they get an honest response.