to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

The assumption that trans inclusion means victimhood for born women doesn't sit right with me. All the anti-inclusion arguments rest on the assumption that born women will be victimised by trans people if they are "let in".'

This is just another variant of the victim-blaming "stop whining about sexualised crime". I've never had a single instance of sexual harassment that wasn't dismissed as "stop whining". Next you'll be saying women "can't take a joke".

Women have always been victimised by men. The solution isn't to force them to share spaces with intact male bodied people and then castigate them for "claiming victimhood" when they say they're scared and don't want to.

Why can the solution not be protected single sex spaces for males and females, and a third space for those for whom neither is appropriate or who just want to make the point? It takes nothing away from anyone and everyone has an option. The only problem is that it would mean accepting that transwomen cannot be validated as no different to natal women in every single space by every single person, no matter the cost.

The assumption that trans inclusion means victimhood for born women doesn't sit right with me. All the anti-inclusion arguments rest on the assumption that born women will be victimised by trans people if they are "let in". It's not a particularly respectful view of either trans people or born women to expect this to be the result, and is somewhat of a non-argument seeing as it happens already.

What about the one in five women who have suffered assault at the hands on a man and would be unable to be alone with someone who has male physique or a male voice without being re traumatised? It's not always about what might happen, even if we pretend that no trans woman has ever attacked or raped a woman and no man has ever used this as a way in, the trauma is real and a huge percentage of women would genuinely have nowhere to go in public.
Obviously in refuges you can raise this 20% to 100% of those women.

@Biffbaff

Yes *@anotheruser02* I do think wanting separate spaces for trans people is TERFy. Because that imposes a restriction and an exclusion on the daily lives of trans people. I think the toilet thing is a straw"man" of an argument. It's not really about safety in toilets, is it? It's an expression of the limits on your inclusion and is therefore still exclusionary.

Ok.

But it's presumably ok to place restrictions on the daily lives of women by allowing men into female only spaces?

For example a traumatised rape victim to no longer feel able to use the changing rooms in her local gym because a person whose obviously to her a man is now using it?

For an elderly woman to struggle without the home care she needs because the person provided to help her bathe is obviously male?

For a woman to refuse an intimate examination that may have long term medical consequences because despite asking for a woman to perform the procedure the person between her legs is a man called Lilly?

For a young girl guide not to be able to go to camp because she's expected to share a tent with a guide leader or another guide that 3 months ago was called Darren/James and it's against her religious beliefs (and she frankly joined guides because she wanted a female only environment)?

For a family to find the Korean spa they've frequented for years is now enforced to allowed men with a penis into the female spa area. Where they can walk around and share pools/saunas/treatment beds in an environment where (for cultural reasons) nudity is mandatory?

The fact is we have sex segregation precisely because its exclusionary to both sexes.

I wouldn't dream of "crashing" a male self help group/spa session etc etc

Being exclusionary is not the same as being bigoted.

Yet I note you are more than happy to exclude the TERF's to their own bathroom...(aka the Female toilets btw).

Exclusion is something you seem to be comfortable with as long as YOU get to decide whose allowed where and when.

Insisting on specific events to prove your point is the same as those who keep showing horrific events from groups as ISIS to justify the exclusion of all Muslims from a country. It is exactly the same methodology.

You will always find spacegoats, real monsters who prove your point. this is not how regulations should be drafted.

Using this approach leads to abuse of all kinds of minorities.

The Equality Act exists for this reason. To balance rights. Not to erase women's rights because some people now find them inconvenient.

Usually in situations like this it's best to use evidence-based policy making. Regulations are meant to be drafted on the basis of statistics and impact assessments if Government functions properly, and it's quite obvious that the views of Stonewall etc on this would have a far greater negative impact on many more individuals than a more balanced approach.

As several PP have pointed out, peer reviewed research shows tran-women commit violent offences at the same rate as males, not the much lower rate of females. Women therefore still need protection from all biological males for safeguarding when in vulnerable situations. Research shows that the majority of women have experienced sexual harrassment, abuse or assault from men, even by their early 20s. Society must protect them, even if it hurts some people's feelings to do so. Believe me, it's much better to have your feelings hurt than to be raped. I find this "I don't get what the problem with having men in all of your spaces?!" thing massively insulting to those of us who have survived abuse.

If trans-women and trans-men need their own separate spaces to feel comfortable then I think everyone would support them in that.

I take your point, and am a survivor of male violence. But I don't think women should have to qualify why they especially deserve a female only space. We have rights to privacy from the opposite sex, and should be treated with dignity and respect.

@camaleon

Also loving the idea of "spacegoats"

🐐🚀🪐😂

& I think our most recent visitor exemplifies quite neatly why the argument for additional spaces gets mightily buggered, every single time.

Feminists are all for it. Then some angry person rocks up & says No Not Good Enough You Witches How Dare You.

Every single time.

Except for sexual assault, most violent crimes are perpretrated by male and victims are also male. So what shall we infer from this according to your logic?

That women and girls should be safeguarded from men and that men should sort out their own issues with each other not try to make their violence women's problem.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I take your point, and am a survivor of male violence. But I don't think women should have to qualify why they especially deserve a female only space. We have rights to privacy from the opposite sex, and should be treated with dignity and respect.

Agree completely. That's how safeguarding works. We don't wait until it happens, we try to minimise the risk of it happening.

Do any of them want to be in female only spaces though? I feel there's an assumption here that they're fighting to get in that is not founded

@Bewareofisms The younger states they want to be in 'queer' spaces and have sought out those as far as I know, primarily with other younger trans people (both males and females). The pandemic also curtailed a lot of things as they 'came out' during it. However, their absolute lack of understanding the risks of the hormones (sterility, loss of bone density, etc.) is quite breathtaking and there's a sexist undercurrent to it all as I often hear, "I want to be a girl," and "I love girly clothes," which is odd for an adult to want. Honestly, both their parents and I think they were groomed online.

I don't discuss bathrooms or other spaces w/ the older ones - we are friendly, but not close, so we all speak on more superficial topics. I didn't bring up the sports, my neighbor did as she's a runner and said, "DUH, I run faster than women my age."

'Except for sexual assault, most violent crimes are perpretrated by male and victims are also male. So what shall we infer from this according to your logic?'

My take away is that anyone who decides to ignore sexual assault in this context is no friend of women.

I am going to post this here (despite being flamed for saying it on a thread about harassment last week). I think it is relevant for some, in order to understand why the safety of women as a sex class under the equality act is so important.

*Do you really believe that men don't know this behaviour is wrong? They wouldn't want other men doing it to their wives, mothers or children.

The onus should not be on young girls and women at all. They aren't responsible for the 4% conviction rate.

So why don't women keep standing up to it? There are several reasons including:

It increases the risk of violent outcomes. When I have reacted it has escalated.
Attacks are often in isolated vulnerable areas. Nobody is going to help you.
You go in to survival mode. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn.
People aren't close socially anymore, there isn't a Social network willing to sort it out for many.
People don't believe you. Horrific.
If people do believe you nothing happens. His word against yours.
Shame.

By the age of 21 I had been (in additionto many many minor incidents):

Raped, age 13 by a 21 year old.
Chased along the road 13 by a man on the way home from school because he liked me and I ignored him.
Digitally penetrated 14 on the tube during a school trip surrounded by all of my year group (shout out in that situation NFW the shame).
Groping of genitals 18 walking home alone on deserted Road. I punched him in the face and screamed my head off, probably because of the previous incidents). He had a knife and stalked me for weeks before getting bored because I wouldn't go out.
Pushed in to a Bush 21 on a deserted road and violently sexually assaulted.
Groped by a disabled man in the student bar, when I shouted out about his hand between my legs, I was being ableist.

So, in my adult life I have often frozen and waited for it to end. My ex partner being the exception. But even after reporting him and telling everyone, I was subjected to disbelief, poor ex comments, discouragement from pressing charges and victim blaming because obviously I should have done more.*

I am pro transgender spaces, separate and equal. But never at the expense of women.

sorry @chickenyhead . Very sorry.

Also loving the idea of "spacegoats"

Me too

@chickenyhead

There is a petition above with very few signatures, set up by transwomen. Maybe if such a petition were supported by significant numbers of women by sex, their concerns about their safety could be taken seriously.

This comment is horrifyingly misogynist.

Women's concerns about safety (and men's about not wanting to share with women) HAVE been discussed and heard - thanks to very much work and organisation from a subordinate position over decades - in the USA, which had the first breakthrough for modern women's rights over a century - and finally at least partially recognised and advanced. Concessions (sorry, but that is what they were/are) have been won and enshrined in law, at least in the UK.

NOW, after all this, some random arsehole (chickenyhead) REALLY wants to say that women's "concerns about their safety could be taken seriously" ONLY if sufficient numbers of women have signed some specific petition?

NO.

Take your misogyny and go.

@Delphinium20

sorry *@chickenyhead* . Very sorry.

Obviously it wasn't you

I am just one bitter vagina having victim. There are many of us. We are women.

There are also transgender victims and male victims. Equal but separate safe spaces.

Thank you for sharing that, @chickenyhead. You were obviously under no obligation, but it was very brave.

It'll make no difference to those whose agenda rests on shutting women up, trivialising their concerns and accusing them of claiming victim status, but the rest of us understand

Chickeny head those bastards.

I used to say I'm sorry but that has started to sound to me. I'm sorry these things happened which invisibilises who did it.

Many women have a list at long as your arm. Loads of threads on here.

It's just handwaved away though.

I've seen.

Men who want to attack women and girls will do it anyway. So these things change nothing. (A particularly crass, nasty, insensitive statement).

Crime is a people thing. Women do it too. Focussing on men is sexist and offensive. And probably means you have it in for men for some reason.

But lesbians.

Xyz are non contact what's the big deal it's only a dick. You're prudish/ victorian/ do you need a fainting couch.

Any poor behaviour can be reported and will be dealt with.

No man would 'pretend to be trans' and go to all that effort (what effort?) just to access women and girls for nefarious purposes.

Etc etc.

This argument won't work as essentially the background of sexual misbehaviour / crime that is s background to the life of so many women and girls is. Well I mean it's always happened and it will always happen and so let's be realistic. This argument is not of interest.

It's a good idea, chickenyhead (& & I'm so sorry!)

It's just that, well, we've been suggesting it for years, & apparently it's not enough.

Access to women's spaces is demanded & any compromise is unacceptable.

@2Olives1Onion

Apologies for the offence caused.

I don't believe that it is about one silly petition at all. I am grateful to the brave women who have fought and fight every day for women's rights. They are more intelligent and resilient than I could ever hope to be.

But what I do believe, in respect to this particular matter, is that the more women who engage and understand on a grass roots (not intellectual) level, the more likely we would be to be heard. As with #MeToo.

I am naive and seemingly wrong. I thought I could help in some small way.

I shall indeed trot on.

@chickenyhead

So sorry

You're not alone.

I don't know any female in my social group who hasn't be sexually harassed, abused or raped.

Not one including myself (attempted rape).

There's nothing special about me or any of my friends.

Nobody attacked me or my friends because they checked out my gender identity.

They saw our sex.

@Sonarl
I was suggesting that the YANBU figure of 15% might have been inflated due to the double negative it entails (‘you’re not being unreasonable to NOT think women's rights are being attacked’)...that perhaps more than 85% think the op unreasonable.

Maybe I’m more easily confused than most, but I had to think about what it meant and nearly clicked the negative option...

"The assumption that trans inclusion means victimhood for born women doesn't sit right with me. All the anti-inclusion arguments rest on the assumption that born women will be victimised by trans people if they are "let in". It's not a particularly respectful view of either trans people or born women to expect this to be the result, and is somewhat of a non-argument seeing as it happens already."

That is not an argument. There's no reason for men to be in women's private spaces just because they wish they were women. And because it is happening now, we have evidence that males who identify as trans are committing criminal acts from indecent exposure to rape in women's bathrooms. That's why most people think this is horrifying and wrong.

2Olives1Onion--Outstanding!!

Don't go chickeny!

I can't speak for the other poster.

I get that a petition by a transwoman might get more traction as no one listens to women. I understand your idea.

The other poster I suppose reacted to - like that cartoon ' finally put in charge of struggling feminist movement'.
I get that too.

Don't go!