Rigid school uniforms

[Waitrosedisaster]

I've just had the usual letter from my child's secondary school, where it outlines all the dos and don'ts surrounding school uniform for the next academic year.

Is anyone just absolutely sick of the outdated concept of strict uniforms? The nitty gritty details of 'only black or brown hair bobbles', 'no bows on socks', 'all clothes including p.e kit must have the school logo'. Why? Just why? My personal favourite this year is the following 'any piercing other than single lobe piercings will be removed immediately, regardless of when piercing was obtained'. Also, nail varnish and shellac will also be removed immediately? Wtf?

School uniforms (other than being used as a money making scheme) were originally used for purposes not to dissimilar from uniforms for prisons, or mental health units. They were used to strip away a person's individuality and make them more likely to conform and obey as they are effectively 'uniform'. It's such an outdated concept and I find it bizarre that schools are able to even dictate which (overpriced) shops the uniform must come from.

I hear arguments from teacher friends about how uniforms are better for low income families, but are they really? Unless the parents do not work, are they even able to claim money off uniforms?

Anyone else agree?

Schools can't do anything right can they?

For £150 I’ve just kit my daughter out with her branded secondary school uniform, I just need to buy shirts, tights and shoes.

To me that is essentially the wardrobe she will wear 5 days a week, no arguments for, I’m hoping, around 18 months to 2 years before she grows out of it. A bargain compared with the wardrobe she’d need if she was allowed to wear her own clothes - let alone the arguments of what was or wasn’t appropriate for school.

My sons uniform was even cheaper and had he been able to wear his own clothes life would have been miserable. He would have wanted to wear designer gear every day, and different every day too, which would have cost an absolute fortune and when I would have refused I can’t imagine the rows!

Uniform - easy, no arguments, cheaper than the alternative and teaches them to conform ready for the workplace.

The issue is school culture and whether the students have parents who support the school they send their children to or not

Parents are far more likely to support the school and its culture if they’re not having to spent a fortune on silly impractical branded uniform.

Take the horrible polyester shirts for example; hot and sweaty in summer, cold in winter. Of course I could buy cotton but I’d have to iron it and for a FT working mum that’s another job and more expensive as I’d have to buy from an eco brand. Same for polyester Teflon-coated trousers and shorts with no stretch in the fabric. And ties, I loathe making my 6 year old wear a tie (ghastly nylon things I can never get right!)

Also the sheer amount of uniform is expensive. If you’ve got 2 in the same school that’s 10x long sleeved shirts for winter, 10x short sleeved shirts for summer, 10x trousers or skirts, 10x tights or socks, 10x shorts, 10x jumpers with school logo, 10x fleeces with school logo, 10x ties, 10x black socks and black leather shoes, several packs of black hair ties or plaiting bands.

They have to have a clean set each day due to covid. So if I don’t kit each DC out with 5 sets I’m trying to wash and dry mid week after wraparound care!

And although the younger has a few handed down items they’re spares as by time eldest has done with them they have holes, stains and are faded so she doesn’t want them! And their feet are different widths so no recycling there.

I don't think £150 is cheap! Especially when you've not included big expenses like shoes which often come to £30-40 per pair, and they'll need regular school shoes plus trainers, plus occasionally things like football studs etc.

Does the £150 include PE kit?

Also why do they need to "learn how to conform" aged six @Funnyfive ?

Countries all over the world don't have uniforms and the adults all seem to cope just fine!

I was a well behaved child at school and the children who messed with the rules on uniform were always the ones who were also aggressive and scary to be around. I think that when the rules are spelled out like this, it's much easier then to pull those aggressive children aside and have a word with them about their behaviour.

I don’t think that’s fair. Those children may have had SEN or sensory needs that made the uniforms feel intolerable to them so they didn’t follow the rules. My friend’s son has sensory processing issues and they break the rules; he doesn’t do his top button or wear a tie properly (he pulls it loose) he won’t tuck in his shirt, he wears girls trousers as they’re stretchy pull up jersey fabric. He’s very well behaved, shy and academically ahead!

Or those children you remember may have come from disadvantaged backgrounds where parents couldn’t afford the proper uniform.

They could have suffered abuse or neglect or had parents who refused to spend on uniform or didn’t care if the kids didn’t wear it properly.

I’m sorry you were bullied but please don’t blame the uniforms.

I am a few years off the secondary school uniform but I do feel a dress code would be much better. The secondary school here has a very formal dress code and the kids are not allowed to remove their blazers at all. I feel so sorry for them in the summer, also they have no lockers so often the don’t wear coats in the rain as they have no where to hang them so they are sat in wet blazers all day.

I don’t understand why they can’t just have a more relaxed dress code like the primary with polo shirts.

The rules on hair and piercings I can’t get worked up about there are still job which have these types of restrictions.

I totally disagree. A strict uniform policy helps instil discipline and generally contributes to an environment of work and focus. Both of the DCs’ schools have very strict policies- top buttons done up, shirts tucked in, shoes polished, blazer and jumper on at all times unless invited to remove by teacher (not even allowed to ask permission.

How does it help create an environment of work, focus and discipline if children are overheating in blazers or distracted by their top buttons being annoying or worrying about their shirts becoming un tucked?

My high school teachers used to shout ‘shirt alert’ if a shirt was untucked. It just sent kids into giggles. Especially as the teachers were dressed casually!

I was a well behaved child at school and the children who messed with the rules on uniform were always the ones who were also aggressive and scary to be around. I think that when the rules are spelled out like this, it's much easier then to pull those aggressive children aside and have a word with them about their behaviour

So the uniform rules did naff all to prevent bad behaviour…..

At work I don’t have to worry about overly ridiculous constraints on my appearance. I don’t think being stricter about uniform conjured up a better work ethic, that’s nonsense.

Parents are far more likely to support the school and its culture if they’re not having to spent a fortune on silly impractical branded uniform.
That's an issue regarding uniform suppliers and price though, not the existence of a uniform. I dont agree with expensive single supply uniform and even if a school did have that, I'd not be spending huge sums on money on items that are clearly not part of the uniform.

Parents have to decide what's more important to them: supporting the school even if they don't necessarily agree with all their rules, or showing their child that special people like them are exempt so should totally have piercings/fake nails/trainers when the rules say "no trainers, no fake nails". If they choose the latter because wearing trainers, jeans, and false nails is their priority then they can't be surprised when their child is routinely in detention or isolation for thinking school rules don't apply to them.

blazer and jumper on at all times unless invited to remove by teacher (not even allowed to ask permission.

What an utterly petty, and potentially bullying, policy. I hope the teachers are all wrapped up very warm, especially the menopausal women - at all times.

If you're going to have a uniform policy, fine. Whatever. Have at it. But the pathetic "top button done up at all times can't take a jumper off without permission" bollocks is controlling and unnecessary. Frankly in my day that would have been the thing that got me thrown out of school (a perpetually warm person) rather than anything else i may have done.

Oh and I forgot PE kit when listing the 5 sets of uniform per child!

They have PE twice a week and outdoor sport twice a week. So for 2 kids that’s 4 branded PE T-shirt’s, 4 pairs of gym shorts, 2 pairs of plimsolls, 2 pairs of school trainers, 4 pairs of black joggers and 4 black hoodies! And branded PE bags.

I wish they could just wear the PE kits as uniform, so comfortable and practical and as long as the hoodies and t-shirts have the logo the rest could be bought from the high street.

Many of you are saying the only thing wrong with uniform is the expense. The idea it's better to just make children wear plain black and white polyester supermarket clothes is just...depressing. In many parts of the world children wear comfortable, colourful playclothes to school and I promise they don't have any extra problems with discipline and focus in those countries. They're children! Let them wear their bright trainers and their soft tee shirts and their sparkly hair clips.

@SleepingStandingUp

It's a bit odd you're more perplexed about kids not being able to wear shellac nails than a green hair bobble.

Uniforms aren't the issue, 3000 petty rules are. Ours need grey or black bottoms, yellow top, blue jumper. PE is dark trainers, dark bottoms, white top. Ok primary but the equivalent is possible for secondary

Our primary is the same (naice middle class intake, outstanding school etc). At least, the school tries to insist on logo'd stuff in the uniform letters they send home from time to time, but almost every single parent completely ignores it and continues sending little Tarquin in wearing basic non-logo'd stuff in the correct colours. Most of the kids have lots of support at home, tutors etc so the Head seems to have the sense to quit while she's ahead and doesn't push it any further.

Brefugee
Most of us who've worked places with that rule tell our classes at the start of the year that they can remove their jumpers and blazers when they like. It ticks the box and we can get on with teaching.I haven't the time or inclination to lose learning time giving individuals permission through the lesson .

More often than not I find that the classroom can be far too hot, I've removed my blazer, 75% of students are in shirts and then 25% are in their jumpers complaining of being hot, with the occasional student wearing a t shirt under their shirt!

At DDs school we get an email if hot weather is forecast (probably over 25°c) saying they are permitted to not have blazers that day. I'm pretty sure the teachers dont all wear jackets until explicity told they can take them off.

Parents have to decide what's more important to them: supporting the school even if they don't necessarily agree with all their rules, or showing their child that special people like them are exempt so should totally have piercings/fake nails/trainers when the rules say "no trainers, no fake nails". If they choose the latter because wearing trainers, jeans, and false nails is their priority then they can't be surprised when their child is routinely in detention or isolation for thinking school rules don't apply to them.

I agree piercings and fake nails should be banned, they’re a health hazard eg if they get infected or ripped out playing sport.

Trainers does it really matter if you stick to school colours?

I buy all the branded uniform via M&S do the school benefit from that?

I think one can support the school whilst disagreeing with some of their rules.

Uniforms have changed very little since I was at school! Except I had to wear a sash too. They got rid of the sashes as kids used them to tie each other to trees! 😂

I couldn't disagree more. I think children need lower level boundaries to kick against whilst remaining within the more important boundaries.
I think children need to learn that sometimes they have to do as they are told and fit into societal norms. I think there is no great problem getting the right colour hair bobbles or socks without bows and parents that allow this allow a metaphorical finger up at the school staff.

This.

Also when the rules are more relaxed pupils just abandon them completely. I was at school late 90s/early noughties at the peak of uniform relaxation. By the time I got to 5th form, they had gone from blazers/shirts/ties gradually to a plain polo shirt and school jumper. With every relaxation of the uniform attainment level fell, considerably. Not only that, but once they got to jumpers only people just never bothered even wearing those, they would just wear a hoody and tell staff it was their "coat".

The idea it's better to just make children wear plain black and white polyester supermarket clothes is just...depressing

I know what you mean. I hate all the polyester and nylon! Why can’t they wear cotton jersey joggers and cotton t-shirts (or turtlenecks in winter with a sweater)? Or wool blend jumpers and natural fabrics.

Schools could specify a colour scheme if ‘unity’ is important!

@LolaSmiles

But why is anything that you have said important for a child's learning experience? Does it really matter if heaven forbid, a 15 year old has two piercings in each ear lobe? Or someone wears culotte black trousers because they are understandably much more comfortable than the formal type school insist on. Because it tells you a lot about the attitude that is being promoted at home.

A parent who sees "one ear lobe piercing" and say "oh well DC, we can clearly read the expectations that are on the website and have been sent to us but let's go and get you several piercings and if anyone challenges you then I'll argue with school because your piercing doesn't affect your learning ... it's not like a bit of metal affects your brain pats self on back at how smart they are" is exactly the type of parent who is likely to complain that their child was expected to follow the same rules as everyone else and apparently doesn't consent to the school following their behaviour policy when their child chooses to repeatedly ignore the rules. It's why in normal years there's always dozens of threads on here from posters ranting and raving about the fact their child got detentions "for no reason" when in reality their child has disrupted a lesson, refused to follow instructions and argued back. Said posters are quick to argue that their child shouldn't have to follow any school expectations that they don't like.

As an individual, I couldn't care less if a school has a uniform or a dress code, but when uniforms and dress codes are stated then they need following. If parents have no intention of supporting the basic expectations of school, why send their kids there? Home educate them or find a school that allows them the full freedom to pick and choose what expectations apply to them.

Despite being totally against completely authoritarian rigid uniforms I do believe there is truth in this.

But I also think these parents and their offspring would be like it with anything.

I also supported the school and ensured ds wore uniform. But he didn't attend a school that had a rigid one and funnily enough they had less issues with conforming with what they did ask for than the schools who want clones in matching socks and bobbles.

I would have ensured my ds conformed if our only choice was one of the schools who are rigid but I also think as well the rigid uniform rules affect males far less than females.

Black/grey trousers are just that. Shirt and tie are just that and a blazer is just that. I think whatever height shade and size you are as a male you can fit the uniform.

It's not the same for girls. A pencil skirt for example isn't comfortable for some shapes and sizes - same with the a line tartan skirts (which I actually favour!).

My friends dd who grew to 6ft by year 8 wore the schools only available skirt online by the school supplier and spent months in and out of isolation because it was too short. It was the only skirt the school would allow her to wear 🤦‍♀️

In the end she was moved schools because there was just way way to solve the issue short of having her legs shortened!

And it doesn't wash about the world of work anymore. It's the 21st century. People are no longer prevented from taking top jobs in high earning industries because they have multiple piercings and tattoos.

especially the menopausal women

What an odd, odd thing to say.

. In many parts of the world children wear comfortable, colourful playclothes to school and I promise they don't have any extra problems with discipline and focus in those countries.

This isnt actually true. In many, many countries school uniforms are common or even required and associated with higher attainment. It's only really mainland Europe and the US where they are less common.

I think they’re a good idea. Having kids in their own clothes just gives bullies another stick to beat poor / fat / unfashionable kids with. Uniforms are an equaliser.

I agree the rules can be too rigid though - bobble colour and bows on socks aren’t really the be all and end all.

My friends dd who grew to 6ft by year 8 wore the schools only available skirt online by the school supplier and spent months in and out of isolation because it was too short. It was the only skirt the school would allow her to wear 🤦‍♀️ In the end she was moved schools because there was just way way to solve the issue short of having her legs shortened!

I literally do not believe she was put in isolation constantly if wearing the skirt as it was intended and the hem had been let down fully etc. I know a family with a daughter in exactly the same position but she was isolated because she was constantly rolling up the already short skirt to bum length. No school would get away with constantly punishing a pupil but failing to suggest a solution. I suspect a solution will have been offered (wearing trousers etc).

Take the horrible polyester shirts for example; hot and sweaty in summer, cold in winter. Of course I could buy cotton but I’d have to iron it and for a FT working mum that’s another job and more expensive as I’d have to buy from an eco brand.

This is bollocks. A secondary aged child needs to be ironing their own shirts! Primary children rarely wear button down shirts and in any case usually have jumpers over the top, I don't know anyone who irons them. My mother never ironed my school shirts. You do not need to buy from an expensive "eco brand" to obtain a cotton school shirt.