Rigid school uniforms

[Waitrosedisaster]

I've just had the usual letter from my child's secondary school, where it outlines all the dos and don'ts surrounding school uniform for the next academic year.

Is anyone just absolutely sick of the outdated concept of strict uniforms? The nitty gritty details of 'only black or brown hair bobbles', 'no bows on socks', 'all clothes including p.e kit must have the school logo'. Why? Just why? My personal favourite this year is the following 'any piercing other than single lobe piercings will be removed immediately, regardless of when piercing was obtained'. Also, nail varnish and shellac will also be removed immediately? Wtf?

School uniforms (other than being used as a money making scheme) were originally used for purposes not to dissimilar from uniforms for prisons, or mental health units. They were used to strip away a person's individuality and make them more likely to conform and obey as they are effectively 'uniform'. It's such an outdated concept and I find it bizarre that schools are able to even dictate which (overpriced) shops the uniform must come from.

I hear arguments from teacher friends about how uniforms are better for low income families, but are they really? Unless the parents do not work, are they even able to claim money off uniforms?

Anyone else agree?

I was a well behaved child at school and the children who messed with the rules on uniform were always the ones who were also aggressive and scary to be around. I think that when the rules are spelled out like this, it's much easier then to pull those aggressive children aside and have a word with them about their behaviour.

That's not my experience in 25 years of teaching. There are all kinds of children who push it with the uniform rules. I don't see why having strict uniform rules helps you pull kids aside about aggressive behaviour. If they are behaving aggressively, you tackle that. It has nothing to do with uniform.

@StrongLegs x-post with you!

@LolaSmiles I concur.

But I guess they'd be arsehole parents no matter what :(

I dont object to uniform per se, but I do feel aggrieved that virtually every school insists it must come from the same supplier.
My DDs school uniform is navy. Why would it be so awful of me to buy a navy skirt from M and S, instead of the school supplier? Im ok for them to state the style or required length. Is she better behaved wearing the more expensive one?
At the primary school they are required to wear navy shorts for PE. DS currently has pair from sainsburys. They are suitable for sport and fit well...but next year they will need to be branded navy shorts and cost about 4 x as much. How exactly will this improve his behaviour or sporting prowess? He wears football socks that were £2 from sports direct. DDs branded socks are almost exactly the same (I get them mixed up in the wash) but have a stripe and school initials on them, and cost £7.

@warmfluffytowels I'm completely in agreement with you on cost.

I do think that even state school uniforms can be eyewateringly expensive.

I always want to buy two lots of PE kit and 5 lots of daily uniform,
because I frequently mess up with the washing and realise too late that I haven't washed whatever it was that I was meant to wash

It's okay for me because we have a decent lot of money and one child, but I think it must be very hard for families with a number of children and less money. I like to buy good shoes too and they are mind-bogglingly expensive.

I had the blazer and tie and skirt and tights uniform as a child and it was horrible. I'm so glad that so many schools just have the polo shirt and sweatshirt and trousers option. How lovely must it be for the girls to have pockets? I would have given my eye teeth for pockets as a school child.

00100001
You're right. They'll be everywhere. Having a clear uniform (as simple as possible in my opinion) is much easier than having a dress code and dealing with the inevitable pushing and twisting and arguing about what does/doesn't technically count. It also means that life is easier for parents whose kids might turn on the pester power about what everyone else is or isn't wearing, so at least you're only left with the core group of moaners.

I think uniforms should be simple, have a few options, have clear boundaries, and be affordable.
Eg. Plain back trousers, no jeans, no leggings, no joggers, no super skinny or super baggy trousers. White polo shirt or white shirt. School jumper or sweatshirt. Plain black shoes or plain black trainers with no obvious branding or bling.

Until I started working in schools it never crossed my mind the mental gymnastics some people will do to find a way fairly simple principles don't apply to them.

Blazers usually have plenty of pockets

@MarjorieBouvier

I don't understand why more schools don't have 2nd hand sales. Dcs uniform costs ~£600 new for everything in y7. Got almost the whole lot for under £50 in a 2nd hand PTA sale. But I suppose you have to have parents willing to organise it. Price really shouldn't be a barrier.

Because. after 2-3 years of daily wear the items are showing wear and tear.

DD needs a new blazer in September. While her old one still is fine as it doesn't have stains, no broken seams, no ripped lining, it starts to show that it has been worn 5 days a week for 3 years (minus pandemic home learning).

Unless your child had a sudden growth spur and didn't fit anything the items are worn out.

We got a skirt from our neighbours, the girl moves to 6th form with a different dress code. The skirt is fine as an emergency but not like the one I had to buy new because the zip broke.

Hence the fact that the pupils can spot who only wears second hand uniform vs got a new set and then the next round of bullying/calling names start.

Most parents buy large.

God I hate school uniforms for the unimportant hassle they cause to parents, students and even staff trying to enforce the bloody things. Can you imagine a teacher really caring if a student wears nail polish?? And yet they are paid to pretend they do everyday! Getting themselves the reputation as the most incredibly petty people in the universe when they actually of course don't give a flying fuck. And petty people command zero respect. Will your dc vote with their feet in 6th form? My ds certainly did, taking his best grades in the rather low achieving school with him. Ridiculous nonsense.

@PuffinDodger

Blazers usually have plenty of pockets

Yes, that's why DD will continue voluntarily with the blazer. Also in winter in an old building it is warmer I have been told.

I think she doesn't need a bag, the blazer holds everything she needs for school.

@PuffinDodger

Blazers usually have plenty of pockets

While I'd prefer no uniform, DS loves his blazer for the pockets. He's lucky to have the option as he hates jumpers that go over the head, I bought one in year 7 and it went unused in the drawer until I gave it away. He will wear a zipped jacket or hoodie but not a jumper.

Until I started working in schools it never crossed my mind the mental gymnastics some people will do to find a way fairly simple principles don't apply to them

Me: Just calling to let you know that the nose bar Lisa has in today is against the uniform policy.
Lisa’s mum: It was her birthday.
Me: oh. Well, I’m afraid it’s going to have to come out.
LM: But it was her birthday present.
Me: That’s difficult. It’s going to need to come out though - as well as the uniform issue it’s also a bit unsafe when she’s doing PE,
LM: I don’t know what you’re expecting me to do, I’ve explained that she’s allowed to have it. Maybe she could not do PE?
Me: She’s not allowed to have it at school -
LM: Can I speak to the Head, you’re not being very helpful and Lisa thinks you’re picking on her.
Me: 🤦🏻‍♀️

That seems an extreme school uniform, though. My DC secondary was all generic, supermarket-type clothing. Black skirt or trousers, white shirt, grey jumper. Nothing school specific. There was only a specific tie and blazer to be bought - that lasted five years.

I'm not sure I agree that kids wearing second hand uniform are bullied. The three (private) schools my kids have attended all had thriving second-hand uniform shops and parents rarely bought blazers new in particular (£20 rather than £100). Parents received a share of proceeds from their uniform sales as did school so it was popular with everyone.

You're not unreasonable to not like uniforms, but the idea that there is no individuality with uniforms or that not having them would mean kids would have all this individuality ignores there are plenty of other factors.

Without a uniform, there would be a dress code, and that dress code would likely include rules on piercings and other things you might find ridiculous. I knew many growing up in the US, even the most lax, that had rules on piercing because of how it affected PE or issues with them getting yanked out. Some uniforms are ridiculous and some dress codes are ridiculous - some are sensible. Some places enforce their policies in ridiculous ways in either case - some try to be sensible. It's more a school administration issue with the community they're in than a uniform v dress code.

I have no strong feelings either way - one of my kids goes to a place without (though does have to wear protective coveralls in the workshop), two goes to a place with, there are pros and cons with either way for them, me as a parent, and for staff trying to police it (and even with the most lax codes, there will be someone pushing at the boundaries). I don't think white button-up shirts as part of uniforms are as practical as they're made out to be and I do think it's unfair on parents when a school goes through multiple head/academy changes and ends having to deal with multiple uniform changes, but personally, I wish the schools I'd grown up with in the States had some of the rules on hair dye and appearance that I see in the UK. It would have saved me a load of mocking to not have my mother be able to change my hair colour or some of the random shite she pulled. The idea that lax codes result in young kids being able to express their individuality ignores how much the parents play a role in that.

Thank goodness DDs school has uniform so she doesn't get bullied...

Except this week she had the choice of going to homework club or being escorted to the bus stop by the head of year to protect her from the bullies threatening to see her after school.

Bullies find an excuse to bully, it isn't about the issue they claim to be an excuse

I hate uniform. I come from a uniform-free country so haven't experienced it for myself, but having had to navigate uniform-compliance with DC1 who has sensory issues has been a nightmare, and only looks set to get worse once they start secondary in September. The uniform list is long and prescriptive and sooo expensive. I'm halfway through and have already spent £250 on one each of 50% of the required garments. The lightweight polyester emblem blazer is a 'slimline' fit, so DC1, with her swimmer's shoulders was signed up for a woolen version in a boxier cut, which cost £65, more than double the poly version.

I would love to see a standard issue tracksuit uniform, worn with a polo shirt and trainers. DC1 has been fretting about secondary uniform since Christmas, and I know it is going to be a source of daily anxiety and conflict, and this with a child who would do anything to be able to comply and fit in.

Yes I can't see the point of uniforms and we made effort to get a school without them.

@PurpleOkapi

The "better for low-income families" argument is nonsense, unless the school is giving them away for free. It may be true that uniforms are cheaper than giving in to a child's every whim when it comes to designer clothes and whatnot. It's not true that a week's worth of uniforms costs less than a week's worth of perfectly appropriate casual clothes that you can get secondhand or at cheap retailers. That's what the comparison should actually be here.

I really agree with this.

Trying to get uniform second hand is such pot luck at most schools. There's no guarantee you will be able to eg, buy a blazer for £5 on facebook if you are working and other people getting in first every time your child's size pops up.

If you are decking your kid out using primark and charity shops you wouldn't even bother with a blazer, and whatever you did buy can be worn at the weekend too.

This is particularly true when it comes to shoes. For a teenager, the cost of school shoes, trainers and football boots to a nitpicking level of detail could so easily be cut down without a uniform.

I think part of it being puerile, is part of the appeal to me. Kids are evil little guys. Anything they can grab on to your bully kids- they'll take it. I didn't grow up with a lot of money. Wear what you want days were a fecking nightmare as I never had the 'right' clothes- in a uniform, not saying there wasn't bullying, but at least it stopped that Avenue. Also, rules. They exist. Learn to follow them. Do it now, and then they will be easier in later life. Many places have a uniform, and we as a society happily sign up to work there- we don't then change it whilst whining that it doesn't affect me doing my job and going to the daily mail with a sad face........

Also

I went to schools with uniform and was bullied for my lack of fashion sense on non uniform day

But

How was I supposed to develop fashion sense or a personal style when I was wearing uniform all the time?

DS (5) feels strongly he wants to choose and wear his own things and I think that's valuable.

I totally disagree. A strict uniform policy helps instil discipline and generally contributes to an environment of work and focus.

Both of the DCs’ schools have very strict policies- top buttons done up, shirts tucked in, shoes polished, blazer and jumper on at all times unless invited to remove by teacher (not even allowed to ask permission.

It’s great as everyone knows the standards and expectations and generally abide by them.

Many places have a uniform, and we as a society happily sign up to work there- we don't then change it whilst whining that it doesn't affect me doing my job and going to the daily mail with a sad face........

But most adult uniforms have logic behind them.

Warehouse staff have to wear steel-cap boots for safety reasons.
Clothing retail staff wear the shops' clothes as a form of advertising.
People who work with fresh food need to wear certain things for hygiene reasons.
Nurses can't wear big earrings and jewellery for safety and hygiene reasons.
Supermarket staff wear uniform so they can be identified easily.

etc etc.

But most importantly - those uniforms are provided by the company or the costs can be claimed back on tax returns. Whereas school uniforms can cost several hundred pounds per child - and for what benefit?

Greenlakes

OK so wearing layers of sweaty polyester in a heatwave is great for learning huh?

Not to mention people with disabilities etc.

I wonder if the teachers wear the same dress code irrespective of seasons.

I can see the pros and cons of a school uniform of some sort and am on the fence about that.
But...very rigid school uniforms specifically seem very unhelpful for everyone - the school staff who have to spend time policing it, the parents who have to buy it, and the kids who have to wear it. Where's the benefit?
Last summer I spend £497 on uniform for my three kids (and one of them luckily hadn't grown out of a lot of stuff). That's school-branded PE kit, skirts/trousers etc, as well as the blazer and tie. And includes the odd thing second hand and my kids wearing each other's hand-me-downs sometimes. I could very happily have put that money to better use, but it must be a real struggle for a lot of people. It's a state school and I don't live in an area where you get any choice of where you send your children. It seems dictatorial and very unfair.