Rigid school uniforms

[Waitrosedisaster]

I've just had the usual letter from my child's secondary school, where it outlines all the dos and don'ts surrounding school uniform for the next academic year.

Is anyone just absolutely sick of the outdated concept of strict uniforms? The nitty gritty details of 'only black or brown hair bobbles', 'no bows on socks', 'all clothes including p.e kit must have the school logo'. Why? Just why? My personal favourite this year is the following 'any piercing other than single lobe piercings will be removed immediately, regardless of when piercing was obtained'. Also, nail varnish and shellac will also be removed immediately? Wtf?

School uniforms (other than being used as a money making scheme) were originally used for purposes not to dissimilar from uniforms for prisons, or mental health units. They were used to strip away a person's individuality and make them more likely to conform and obey as they are effectively 'uniform'. It's such an outdated concept and I find it bizarre that schools are able to even dictate which (overpriced) shops the uniform must come from.

I hear arguments from teacher friends about how uniforms are better for low income families, but are they really? Unless the parents do not work, are they even able to claim money off uniforms?

Anyone else agree?

If a school uniform is critical to good behaviour and educational attainment, there is something seriously wrong with the school and teaching.
DT’s managed to get A*’s in their A levels in a non uniform school.

When so many parents object to expensive branded uniform (but would accept a simple and practical version) what would happen if parents and students at a school organised collectively to refuse to purchase or wear the branded items?

In my experience the most successful schools are laid back about uniform. The schools that make most fuss about it are using it as a distraction from their real and evident shortcomings.

And it gives a message to young people that all anyone cares about is that they are on time and what they look like, not what they are learning and how they feel about it.

I am American expat and I felt so upset when I had to send my four year old to school in a tie and blazer. What a ridiculous thing to make a toddler wear every day! I will never understand making them wear shorts in winter, poor things. Plus constantly being shouted at to pull up the silly knee socks! And don't get me started about girls not being allowed to wear trousers. It's 2021, not 1921. I like a lot of things about living here but I will never understand the school uniform thing!!

I prefer no uniform then strict uniform. My worst is shite “fashion” uniform where everyone looks a mess. As a parent I like the ease of uniform and my school is very mindful of cost and nothing is a ridiculous price. Only the blazer is branded and you can buy the badge to sew on a generic one. My real bugbears are pettiness about when girls where tights and when they wear socks. I think they should be able to decide for themselves what underwear they wear, and no shorts which I think they should be allowed in summer. The girls wear skirts but for some reason secondary boys wear long trousers despite primary boys and grown men wearing shorts. My boys are dark skinned and I genuinely worry about vitamin D deficiency.

In my experience the most successful schools are laid back about uniform

Really?

I don’t mind uniform, but it should be appropriate. So Affordable and comfortable and ok yes smart and tidy too. But overly strict rules about hair bobbles and socks and earrings and hair colour or style are excessive in my Opinion. I went to a school with a very rigid uniform policy and oh how I wish I had been a bit more adventurous as a teen and dyed my hair pink and pierced my ears multiple times, rather than been a good little girl who wore the right socks. Uniform taught me that it was important to conform, and I don’t think that is necessarily a good lesson.

84wood
It's not about control. It's entirely possible to teach effectively when the students are in uniform or their own clothes in my experience.
The issue is school culture and whether the students have parents who support the school they send their children to or not. If the parents are the sort of parents who will argue the toss over any rule they wouldn't personally choose then that school is always going to be fighting a losing battle because the children are being taught that whether they follow school rules depends on whether they feel like it. If the school has generally supportive parents who have the sense to realise that different organisations have different expectations, they might differ to what you would prefer at times , and sometimes in life organisations have rules, then it won't matter if the school has a uniform or a loose dress code because the parents have common sense and support the school.

The issues with behaviour in schools are complicated, but there is a fairly large overlap between students who think rules don't apply to them and parents who think their child shouldn't follow any rule if they don't feel like it. That's true of uniform and other school rules.

We face a lot of challenges as our twins are both disabled. I had to go through hell to get them into the brilliant specialist school they’re in now. But occasionally I feel grateful that there are some things we just don’t have to worry about, and school uniform is one of those things!

The school has polo shirts and sweatshirts which the kids can wear, but they don’t have to. Otherwise they can wear what they want, including shoes.

They wear their school jumpers and then whatever jogging bottoms and vests or t shirts I can find. Same for PE. Shoes are whatever comfortable things I can find.

I understand uniform to a point. However, I can’t understand how they are allowed to insist on very expensive items - someone posted recently that the PE kit at their typical secondary is over £100 per child. That’s shocking. And why is strict PE uniform even needed. One of my local schools are replacing their uniform with a brand new one for september and I’ve heard it’s extortionate!

Schools should all accept standard colour school uniform from supermarkets or high street shops with maybe a jumper or sweatshirt or tie. Dictating colours of hair bands or specific shade of sock (as my school did) is insane.

Also, schools that send children home for their hair being too short... absolutely fucking insane.

How is any child’s ability to learn hampered by the presence of a pink hair band, or a short hair cut?

I also think school uniforms should be more comfortable and easier to move him.

@84wood

You obviously have lots of experience of getting children their qualifications plus getting good progress in earlier years and find that uniform is unimportant. Good for you.

I’ve not experienced that. Uniform has been important in all my schools.

But super expensive uniforms in poor areas with little choice too move schools seems tough. I’m not sure how to handle that as it isn’t fair and schools can do as they like. In that situation you could write to your MP and copy in hour governing body and local press to embarrass your school. You could also organise second hand uniform sales.

Hope that helps.

You obviously have lots of experience of getting children their qualifications plus getting good progress in earlier years and find that uniform is unimportant. Good for you. I’ve not experienced that. Uniform has been important in all my schools.

But if it's so important, why is the UK one of the only places in the world with such a strict uniform policy?

LolaSmiles so you are saying having a strict uniform is a way of filtering out the kind of families that you don’t want??!

@Waitrosedisaster completely agree. Such an outdated concept and has zero impact on improving outcomes.

Not great at quoting but maybe the reasons for having uniform have evolved but when I went to school it was to prevent children being bullied about the clothes they wore. So in my time it was so children couldn't wear branded clothes as it was easy to spot who couldn't afford them and uniform was all the same.

I started to hate non uniform days the day I wore the 'wrong' style t-shirt and had people laugh at me all day. Loved a uniform.

So sadly the rules do have a place

LolaSmiles so you are saying having a strict uniform is a way of filtering out the kind of families that you don’t want??!

Could you quote the part of Lola’s post that you inferred this from?

@childrenoftherevolution

I am American expat and I felt so upset when I had to send my four year old to school in a tie and blazer. What a ridiculous thing to make a toddler wear every day! I will never understand making them wear shorts in winter, poor things. Plus constantly being shouted at to pull up the silly knee socks! And don't get me started about girls not being allowed to wear trousers. It's 2021, not 1921. I like a lot of things about living here but I will never understand the school uniform thing!!

To be fair, most primary schools in the U.K. don’t make 4 year olds wear a blazer and tie, so you chose a school (perhaps a private school) where this was the policy. None of my friends’ reception age kids wear blazers or ties unless they’re going to private school.

@SmileEachDay
Fee paying schools are not successful because of uniform, they all select their students, by income if nothing else. Some state schools do the same indirectly by requiring uniform that poor students struggle to afford, encouraging them to attend other schools.

Yes it was a private school, have since learned other schools have uniforms that are a bit more comfortable for little ones! But still really surprised at how widespread that sort of tradition is, and what a conservative uniform culture there is herein general.

kowari

I’m a teacher, at a state school. I know exactly why fee paying schools are successful!

My post was in response to a PP who claimed that it was only low attaining schools that needed a strict uniform policy.

As an addendum, I think Eton did drop its top hat policy in recent years.

(Sorry. I’m being a bit facetious but Eton’s uniform tickles me 🤣)

LolaSmiles so you are saying having a strict uniform is a way of filtering out the kind of families that you don’t want??!

No. I didn't say that. You're looking for an argument that isn't there.
As I said quite clearly:
It's entirely possible to teach effectively when the students are in uniform or their own clothes in my experience.

I'm saying that having a uniform or not having a uniform isn't the most important factor as behaviour in schools is complicated. Supportive parents who will support the school will do so whether the school has a uniform or a loose dress code because they're supportive and have the maturity and common sense to know that in life different places have different rules.
The sort of unsupportive parents who will buy leggings when a school uniform says no leggings, who will get their child's ears pierced in the middle of term despite the uniform saying no piercings etc are likely to still be unsupportive of a dress code because their fundamental view is that their child can do what they like and don't have to follow rules that they/their parents don't like.
Parental attitude is a bigger issue than whether a school does or doesn't have a uniform.

Dress codes should suffice.

Pretty much every other country has no uniform,and they do just fine.

I really disagree. I was a well behaved child at school and the children who messed with the rules on uniform were always the ones who were also aggressive and scary to be around. I think that when the rules are spelled out like this, it's much easier then to pull those aggressive children aside and have a word with them about their behaviour.

I would hope that when they have been told to conform in uniform terms, that would also help them to modify their general behaviour to be less intimidating for the other children.

@StrongLegs

I really disagree. I was a well behaved child at school and the children who messed with the rules on uniform were always the ones who were also aggressive and scary to be around. I think that when the rules are spelled out like this, it's much easier then to pull those aggressive children aside and have a word with them about their behaviour.

I would hope that when they have been told to conform in uniform terms, that would also help them to modify their general behaviour to be less intimidating for the other children.

That's fine, but why does any of what you've said mean that schools should be able to enforce a uniform that costs hundreds of pounds per pupil?

btw, having said that. I don't think the uniform needs to be expensive. A polo shirt, sweatshirt and general school trousers are fine. It just needs to be clearly defined.

I don't understand why more schools don't have 2nd hand sales. Dcs uniform costs ~£600 new for everything in y7. Got almost the whole lot for under £50 in a 2nd hand PTA sale. But I suppose you have to have parents willing to organise it. Price really shouldn't be a barrier.

It may be true that many elite and highly successful schools have fancy uniforms. That doesn't mean that other schools emulating the uniforms will make them more successful too, or make their students behave better.

In my experience, strict uniform rules create a whole extra unnecessary source of conflict between staff and pupils. The pupils find it so nitpicky and trivial that it reduces their respect for the school's rules in general. And when you have kids who struggle and are trying hard to improve their behaviour etc, it's very frustrating to feel you have to pick them up on uniform infringements because that's what you've been told to do.

00100001
In an ideal world I would agree with you. I'd be happy with a dress code, and largely still would be, but I trained as a teacher and realised that a worrying number of parents struggle with straightforward concepts such as "no false nails" and think this actually means "take your 13 year old to get acrylics done, then tell your child that the school can't make them take the nails off, then complain when your child is sanctioned once for the uniform and again for arguing back with several members of staff, then tell your child you don't consent to the detention so they don't have to go, then complain and get confrontational when your child is put in isolation after missing several detentions and/or still arriving with the stupid nails on".
When you've had phonecalls from parents wanting to complain that your colleague gave a detention to their child for refusing to remove the jewellery that is not only against the uniform rules, but was also a health and safety issue for the lesson, you start to realise that some parents either have no common sense or are still full of hangups from their own school days.