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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Wheelchair woes and baby buggies

332 replies

MobilityCat · 08/07/2021 02:30

As a wheelchair user I have had problems with buggy owners refusing to fold buggy and hold the baby. I've been left sitting in the rain because the person won't fold the buggy because "my babies asleep".
I 've seen buggies loaded with groceries and person holding the baby asleep in their arm. Occasionally someone will debus with the buggy to make the space available but it's rare. I know people are normally good and decent so what changes them on the bus?

OP posts:
dannydyerismydad · 08/07/2021 11:44

I've always got off the bus for a wheelchair user. I chose to be a parent. They didn't choose to be in a wheelchair.

However, I do find it frustrating that the money spent on my bus ticket is now lost. No refund or credit towards a future journey. I'm left having a lengthy walk home or forking out for a second ticket.

Hardbackwriter · 08/07/2021 11:44

As for the lady who said carry them in a sling, it’s clear she has no idea or had no children because slings stents for everybody, they’re only for the first few months- IF the mum wanted to have one. I used to have one and it’s one of the most useless things ever, but maybe that’s because I’m short. Plus what are they supposed to do after they’ve reached their destination? Have their sling on the front and their nappy bag with all the babies items like nappies and wipes on their back?

Is that directed at me? Because I just said that I do always use a sling on the bus, not that I think everyone should. But fwiw, I carried DS1 until 18 months and hope to do the same with DS2, who is currently 5 months (but the weight of an average 8 month old - not a problem in a good sling). Right now while I front carry yes that's exactly what I do - DS2 on my front, my change bag is a backpack that also holds all DS1's stuff. When I move to back carrying I'll have to change to a shoulder bag. I took DS2 on a 90 minute each way train and tube journey like that last week and then walked around central London for a few hours and this is how we do the nursery run (it's a 15 minute walk from our house) for DS1, which we do most days. I'm not saying everyone can do that, I realise people have different physical capabilities, but it isn't some ludicrous idea that would only be suggested by someone with no children! I find it loads easier than using the pram in about 80% of situations (no problem using stairs!), and it lets me do things you just can't with a pram - for instance a couple of weeks ago I took the bus to the beach on my own with the two children, I couldn't have dragged the pram into the sand!

MolyHolyGuacamole · 08/07/2021 11:44

@Desertexpat

I totally agree. It’s just impossible to collapse a buggy with two children inside and nobody to hold/ carry the children. It reminds me of when I went through Manchester airport with a newborn and a mischievous two year old. They asked me to collapse the pram and I was travelling alone and was like well where am I supposed to put the baby, on the security belt ?? One of the ladies offered to help carry the baby and as I collapsed the pram, my toddler ran across the airport. Never to travel with a pushchair again ever again. And I completely agree that they should provide spaces for mothers and young children in pushchairs. As for the lady who said carry them in a sling, it’s clear she has no idea or had no children because slings stents for everybody, they’re only for the first few months- IF the mum wanted to have one. I used to have one and it’s one of the most useless things ever, but maybe that’s because I’m short. Plus what are they supposed to do after they’ve reached their destination? Have their sling on the front and their nappy bag with all the babies items like nappies and wipes on their back?
Off the bus and wait for the next. Can't really compare this to your experience travelling, you are using a space for wheelchairs and you NEED to vacate it when it's needed.
Trinxsy · 08/07/2021 11:44

I've just remembered something that happened when my son was a newborn actually. So we had our big carrycot pram (we were in the pram designated bit) and a lady was in the wheelchair part with her dog in a pram (Hmm) and the driver refused a wheelchair user as the lady with the dog in the pram was there....it made us furious. We would have happily moved but the pram space is small and a wheelchair couldn't physically go there unfortunately. Still annoys me to this day

NVision · 08/07/2021 11:45

Poor mum left stood in the cold/rain with babies/kids in tow and bags of shopping vs single adult in mobility chair or scooter waiting for next bus

2020isnotbehaving · 08/07/2021 11:46

It’s sad it would genuinely be life changing if I could get on any bus without any hassle. I have enough to deal with before I get to the bus stop & have no fight left in me though. Easier never go anywhere. When you find it stressful with a pram for a few years it’s nothing compared to my life. Sorry sounding dramatic but that’s how it is. Society has long way to go. Flying cars anyone?

NVision · 08/07/2021 11:48

In my experience the buses I used have only ever had 1 officially designated disabled/wheelchair spot, with a fold down seat with a back/head pad they are supposed to back up against. This is usually at the front of the bus downstairs, surrounded by a bunch of regular fold down seats and regular seats - usually labelled as priority for elderly, mothers etc.

As long as whoever is occupying the disability/wheelchair area moves, nobody else needs to. I've seen various people shuffle around to facilitate, e.g. one mum putting kids on lap to allow another mum to sit on fold down seat next to her, or elderly moving back a row or two.

When bus is full, I suppose the imperative is on the driver to get whoever is occupying wheelchair seat to move, as no other seats are presumably legally appropriate.

Sirzy · 08/07/2021 11:50

@NVision

Poor mum left stood in the cold/rain with babies/kids in tow and bags of shopping vs single adult in mobility chair or scooter waiting for next bus
Mum who is presumably capable of walking with said pram even if just to somewhere dry to wait.

Mum who got on the bus knowing that if she went into the wheelchair space she wokld need to vacate it if a wheelchair user needs the bus.

Wheelchair user who has already waited in the rain for 4 full buses to go by.

Wheelchair user who may be made ill staying in the rain for so long,

Wheelchair user who has no other options for transport.

Wheelchair user who is scared to ever go out incase the one space they can use is in use by a pushchair. Again.

Canigooutyet · 08/07/2021 11:50

There are also bags designed specifically for toddlers and they have a strap on them for the adult to hold. Great for all those times they end up slipping their hands out of yours, when you're clothes shopping, folding up the buggy and more. There are also straps that are fastened onto your and the child's wrist.

Don't want to use reusable bags that carry more and take more of a battering than plastic bags, there are gadgets that allow you to carry more than one bag comfortably.

drspouse · 08/07/2021 11:51

I've used a sling up to 3y and DH carried 4 year old DS in a hired sling for a special occasion.

Vrnyoop · 08/07/2021 11:52

OP
www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/legal-casework/paulley-v-firstgroup-plc

Basically the law is as follows:

where the bus driver thinks the non-wheelchair user’s refusal to move is unreasonable the driver must consider some further step to pressurise the non-wheelchair user into vacating the space
This will be dependent on the circumstances.

The further steps which were suggested in the judgment include:

rephrasing the request as a requirement; or
refusing to drive on for several minutes until the non-wheelchair user moves from the space

So it is the bus driver’s responsibility to regulate use of the buggy/wheelchair space.
If you can’t get on a bus because the buggy user refuses to find their chair and the driver won’t intervene, complain to the bus company and the Equality and Human Rights Commission

I hope this helps a bit.

Samcro · 08/07/2021 11:52

@NVision

Poor mum left stood in the cold/rain with babies/kids in tow and bags of shopping vs single adult in mobility chair or scooter waiting for next bus
one is a life style choice, that does not last long. the other is a disabled person.

poor mum will get over it and move on to the next stage of her childrens lives.
person in a wheelchair.............

Hardbackwriter · 08/07/2021 11:53

@NVision

Poor mum left stood in the cold/rain with babies/kids in tow and bags of shopping vs single adult in mobility chair or scooter waiting for next bus
This comment - and the assumption that a mother is more important than someone in a wheelchair (and that of course no one is ever both) - is so depressing and telling. Why should wheelchair users be an automatic lower priority in any situation, let alone when it comes to space that is actually for them?
Samcro · 08/07/2021 11:53

@Sirzy have not missed these threads. ((waves))

Whatwouldscullydo · 08/07/2021 11:54

Poor mum left stood in the cold/rain with babies/kids in tow and bags of shopping vs single adult in mobility chair or scooter waiting for next bus

Why isn't "poor mum " organised and equipped with coats and the rain cover.

Its not on a wheelchair user to bear the brunt of someone thinking it's appropriate to go shopping In the middle of winter with the kids in sandles and a denim jacket "because that's what they wanted to wear"

SlothinSpirit · 08/07/2021 11:55

Aa a relatively young and healthy mum on maternity leave, I regularly dragged my baby out in all weathers for long, muddy walks...They didn't care, they were nice and snug in the pram with the rain cover on and the rain lulling them to sleep. I'd be pretty embarrassed to say to someone in a wheelchair, who might be older or in poor health generally, that they should wait in the rain for the next bus not me!

Bibidy · 08/07/2021 12:04

@Biffbaff

I don't condone buggy users not moving for wheelchair users - that should absolutely be the case. But there is NO need to bash parents here saying 'you chose to have a baby/two close together/use a buggy' etc. It's not on. Both sets of people need to use the bus and there should be room for both. If there isn't, that does present a problem and it's up to the bus company to manage it if the bus users can't or won't.
Completely agree.

This is an issue the bus companies should work on, there is no need for such animosity against parents. Let's face it, no wheelchair or buggy user would use the bus if they had the choice as it's so much more difficult, so both need to be accommodated by the people providing the service.

I can imagine why a stressed parent with a baby, toddler and a load of shopping wouldn't want to get off the bus if they're somewhere other than London and the next bus isn't for half an hour or more, and ditto for a wheelchair user having to wait.

Bus companies need to sort this out.

MobilityCat · 08/07/2021 12:05

@jonastrotters In London TFL have introduced a revised Mobility Aid card, approved by both TfL and bus operators, for customers whose mobility aids (mobility scooters, shopping trolleys (used as mobility aids) and adapted buggies for disabled children) are able to have access to the wheelchair priority area. It includes photos of the holder and their aid. A larger mobility aid label should be displayed on the aid itself. If you're not in the greater London area perhaps your local bus company has a similar system. If not campaign for it. Your child may face a lot of difficulty in the future but he shouldn't be discriminated against now.

OP posts:
MobilityCat · 08/07/2021 12:15

@NVision You have my sympathy, I've also sat in the rain and wind. It's miserable even if you are dressed for it. Add pain and the misery increases.

OP posts:
TheSunShinesBrighter · 08/07/2021 12:22

I've seen buggies loaded with groceries and person holding the baby asleep in their arm. Occasionally someone will debus with the buggy to make the space available but it's rare. I know people are normally good and decent so what changes them on the bus?

I had to get off a bus once when my baby was a newborn. I had shopping so the buggy wouldn’t fold and I couldn’t take everything out of the basket, fold the buggy and take my baby out in time.
Buses here are 4 times a day once every 2 hours. It was the last bus of the day.
I got a taxi and it cost me £30.
I bought a car soon after as using the bus was too unpredictable.
Nobody’s fault other than crap public transport.

Livingtothefull · 08/07/2021 12:27

@NVision

Poor mum left stood in the cold/rain with babies/kids in tow and bags of shopping vs single adult in mobility chair or scooter waiting for next bus
Thanks for clarifying your view (evidently shared by a few of the other posters on here) that disabled people are definitely second class citizens.

I do not understand why so many are posting on the assumption that this matter is open to debate between the relative claims of buggy vs wheelchair users for entitlement to the space. It was not framed as such in the original op so should not be turned into one; there is no debate to be had, this is not a two way issue.

Disabled passengers have the legal right to the wheelchair space. Upholding that right (in the face of so much selfishness and entitlement from so many) is the problem.

BiBabbles · 08/07/2021 12:27

There does seem to be a growing issue where disabled people have to fight for the very things that only exist because disabled people fought for them. I think disabled children end up caught in the middle, but you're not unreasonable that this is a problem many deal with.

It's not helped by a lot of spaces. I've been to a few shopping centres where the lifts have those signs about considering who needs priority, and they only have a buggy sign on the sign - I always think WTF when I see those, and sadly seen those with wheelchairs and walking sticks struggling to be allowed on there too.

I'm physically disabled and there's no way I could fold down a buggy, hold a baby and shopping all at the one time and then set it all back up again by my self. So where do you go in that situation?

Other than campaigning for better transport, it's down to us to manage. I used a baby carrier with a backpack/rucksack for shopping on my back though my partne preferred a baby carrier with a backpack and/or a rolling suitcase if it was a larger shop.

As for the lady who said carry them in a sling, it’s clear she has no idea or had no children because slings stents for everybody, they’re only for the first few months- IF the mum wanted to have one. I used to have one and it’s one of the most useless things ever, but maybe that’s because I’m short. Plus what are they supposed to do after they’ve reached their destination? Have their sling on the front and their nappy bag with all the babies items like nappies and wipes on their back?

I'm aware slings and baby carriers aren't everyone's cup of tea - neither are pushchairs - but the idea that someone who has a difference experience and gives that as something they've done to get around the issue of using public transport with children must have no idea what they're talking because it's different from yours is narrow minded bullshit.

I am a shortish, disabled parent with four children, all about 2.5 years apart, and I medically can't drive so I use public transport a lot. I used a sling for all of them until they were at least 18 months old, some until they were 3 - how long they're useful and if they suit you depends on the type of sling as much as the person.

Sometimes I had to combine these with a wheelchair or mobility scooter or other mobility device and yes, I paired it with a bag on my back even when in a chair - why wouldn't I? This left my hands free for other things.

I actually found buggies painful to use and a faff to get around things in public without risking knocking into something. I didn't even own one after I got rid of one when my oldest was about 5 months until my youngest was 18 months and a floppy tantrummer and that was the awkward solution for a few months. I'm not going to say that other parents having found buggies made their lives much easier don't know what they're talking about.

When I had my first, everyone had to collapse their buggies on the route I was on, there was a tichy little luggage thing for them too, another reason I didn't bother with them. We thankfully have better now - thanks in large part to disability activists - but we still need to think of others on the bus and that includes how we manage our children. Where possibly on public transport, I think we should minimize our impact on other public transport users. Most buggie users have a lot more possibilities on how to do that compared to a wheelchair users, especially one like the OP who has already says they use a small chair.

Poor mum left stood in the cold/rain with babies/kids in tow and bags of shopping vs single adult in mobility chair or scooter waiting for next bus

These are actually overlapping groups - there are 'poor mums' who use wheelchairs with babies and kids in tow: been there, done that. Making it a competition of who is going to more miserable in the rain has no benefits.

grey12 · 08/07/2021 12:29

@Canigooutyet

There are slings that can be used for much longer than a couple of months. The wrap type can easily hold a toddler even with a small petite mum. There are also bags that have shoulder straps so they can be carried on the back.
My baby carrier goes until 5 years!!!!!!
Sunflowers095 · 08/07/2021 12:29

@NeedingAGoodNap

Not all buggys actually fold down, so it’s possible they can’t. I also wouldn’t feel comfortable trying to hold a wiggling baby on a bus as some of the drivers around here think they are formula one drivers
Surely you should leave the bus then? Requiring a wheelchair and being disabled is not a choice, having a child when you don't have a car is. I think it's absolutely selfish and horrible to take up that space just because you have a baby.
MargaretThursday · 08/07/2021 12:37

First off, if you're holding a baby how are you supposed to fold the buggy ? You don't have four arms...

I did this regularly when my dc were little. No low buses so you could wheel them on. Things I did were:
Got a lightweight easy to fold buggy.
Had a sling
Made sure everything I had was easy to life.

So bus comes, you put baby in one arm, and fold down buggy. Actually people often offered to carry the buggy on, but if they didn't, then it wasn't an issue.
When they got bigger and more wriggly so harder to hold in one arm, put baby in sling while waiting for bus. Then you can do the buggy with both hands.

I found people always happy to help, either with holding baby or carrying the buggy on/off.