"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

I think I'd have followed up with "does it have a penis or a vulva?"

Feels a bit smarmy that you asked a relatively simple question and she decided to convolute her answer.

@AryaStarkWolf

And we're called phobic for resisting it too.

It's actually scary how many women seem to be taking an active role in their own regression these days.

It is scary, they don't have a clue because they had the luxury of not living through the amount of sexism and discrimination based on sex (not gender actual biological sex) as us older women did.

It's not just younger women though, my mother is on board with gender ideology too.

@AryaStarkWolf

And we're called phobic for resisting it too.

It's actually scary how many women seem to be taking an active role in their own regression these days.

It is scary, they don't have a clue because they had the luxury of not living through the amount of sexism and discrimination based on sex (not gender actual biological sex) as us older women did.

Right!

I wonder if these men who are now women would be happy to accept a pay cut? Or have their career prospects ruined because they dared to have a family? I wonder if they are happy to take on all of the child rearing and house work, you know now they are women?

Or is it just a cherry pick of which inequalities you like the look of?

Inequalities/stereotypes you like the look of**

@Rumplestrumpet

Thanks ssd, that's what I did.

Water I get that, but I just wondered does it need to have a "gender" in that case? Shouldn't we be fighting against gendered stereotypes? Like I said, I would understand if she said she didn't want society's views of gender put onto her child. I get that. Feels like a feminist approach. Not sure that's what she meant though

Some people don't actually know the difference, maybe it's just something she heard and is repeating. Perhaps from heavily indoctrinated NHS staff who learned the 'correct terms' from struggle sessions.

According to the gender ideologists, there are many, many types of gender - I've seen up to 64 different types described. For gender critical feminists, getting rid off gender stereotypes has been a long, long battle which seems to have gone backwards with swathes of pink and blue in toy and clothes shops. Gender ideologists seem to be trying to entrench it further.

For some reason, millennials seems fixated on categorisation - and defining everything to a single molecule. You can't just be you, a unique and individual human being with flaws and quirks, no you're one of the 46 different types of sexuality and one (or more) of the 64 types of 'gender'.

Shame we haven't seen this fluidity translate into shops where there are still pink and blue divisions.

@AryaStarkWolf

And we're called phobic for resisting it too.

It's actually scary how many women seem to be taking an active role in their own regression these days.

It is scary, they don't have a clue because they had the luxury of not living through the amount of sexism and discrimination based on sex (not gender actual biological sex) as us older women did.

Arya I'm younger (33) and I definitely do not subscribe to this bollocks.

I agree very much that we've had it easier. Have had many conversations with my mum about how crap things were- equal pay for women was only brought in around a year before she started work.

Although I think one of the problems today is complacency in the recent past- it was as though things were much better for women than the 1950s, hell even 1970s, and I think to some people that was good enough. Which of course it never was.

Some of those old issues exist as although better there isn't equality at work etc. There are also new issues- online porn etc, and now of course trans ideology. I think lib fem is a huge problem for women as well. It's not feminism, well I'd label it 'get your tits out for the lads feminism'.

So many issues at play and I love all the conversations on FWR and feel I very much belong on the naughty step 😁

Sex is biological, gender is psychological.

I’m not sure that’s entirely true. Most people who work in health/ mental health believe there is a genetic/ biological component to gender, gender identity or ‘gendered’ behaviour.

A lot of children with strong cross gender behaviour turn out to be gay.

@Ijustknowitstimetogo

Sex is biological, gender is psychological.

I’m not sure that’s entirely true. Most people who work in health/ mental health believe there is a genetic/ biological component to gender, gender identity or ‘gendered’ behaviour.

A lot of children with strong cross gender behaviour turn out to be gay.

Do you have any evidence to back up this total bollocks?

@Ijustknowitstimetogo

Sex is biological, gender is psychological.

I’m not sure that’s entirely true. Most people who work in health/ mental health believe there is a genetic/ biological component to gender, gender identity or ‘gendered’ behaviour.

A lot of children with strong cross gender behaviour turn out to be gay.

Wtf? Sexuality has nothing to do with gender.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

If that is the case *@moreofthisagain* I don't understand how 'gender dysphoria' doesn't have a definition as such, that it isn't viewed as a psychological condition, if it is so different to 'divergent gender identities' and people who want to identify as another nationality- if they are just part of a recent social phenomena.

I know nothing about how medics categorise GD, but if they have declared it is not a psychological condition but not said what it is, then perhaps that is because of the huge and aggressive politicisation of this area by proponents on this recent gender ideology.

She's a fool. Poor baby.

She sounds like a pretentious twat to me! Fair enough, someone may change their gender from their biological sex at birth, but you're still not going to know that until quite some way down the line, so it has no reference at all at this point I wouldn't think!

Well that's concerning then @moreofthisagain if the WHO and NHS aren't defining it due to aggressive politicisation of the issue- I thought they were supposed to be based in facts and science?

Oh wait...

I have no time for the WHO and not much for the NHS- when it comes to talking sense, speaking plain English and in recognising women's needs. So I don't put much weight by some of the things they say.

Didn't the WHO recently say that women of childbearing age shouldn't ever drink alcohol?

@Rumplestrumpet

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

It's not really a generational thing.... I'm sure, being as I am, an 'old fogey' you are familiar with the 'Famous Five' books by Enid Blyton. One of whom George, was really Georgina - but she wouldn't let anyone call her that and she liked to cut her hair short, because she wanted to be a boy.

So George's sex was female, but her gender was male, quite simple really.

I realise I'm probably going to get a massive pile on by stating this, what with Enid Blyton being such a massive 'racist' and all, but I enjoyed her books as a kid and the 'Secret Seven' ones too. Plus, there are now updated versions where the children don't play 'Cowboys and Indians' they play 'Cowboys and Native Americans'. This is great as I work in a school, where it is important to avoid any 'micro-transgressions' in 2021. Got to be super-careful.

So George's sex was female, but her gender was male, quite simple really.

That's gender non-conforming. I doubt George was necking hormones and lopping off her boobs.

So George's sex was female, but her gender was male, quite simple really.

And the above statement is bullshit, quite simple really.

@ElephantOfRisk

It's bollox. Instead of actually widening peoples view on what someone should be like regardless of their sex, they've created more and more boxes to put people in.

What we should have been aiming for is an acceptance that people are male or female genetically (with a few exceptions) but being male or female doesn't mean that some toys/clothes/jobs/personality traits etc are off limits.

What a mess society has got itself in over this.

This.

In fact, in the 1980s and early 1990s it was the case that we were, as a society, promoting that men and women were able to do what they wanted, that sex stereotypes were being challenged. I remember the way careers advice was, with heavy emphasis on traditionally male occupations were listed because I, a female, had expressed an interest in science subjects.

Then when I had my DD, in 2000, we'd begun to swing back the other way, with an emphasis on pink stuff for girls already having a heavy presence in shops.

These stereotypes are harmful to men as well as women, feeding into toxic masculinity too.

You reacted very appropriately, OP, and I share your question about does the baby have to have a gender?!

Gender stereotypes are socially constructed and vary between cultures and across time, so they are clearly nothing innate.

You can call those sorts of interests and preferences gender and try to tie them to sex, or you can call them personality and let people get on doing what fascinates and rewards them without bothering what kind of body they happen to live in. No prizes for guessing my preferred approach!

I think a lot of the appeal for teenage girls identifying out of being female is a desire to dodge sexual harassment and pornified objectification and become invisible. I suspect for older m to f the appeal is all the attention and the thrill of makeup, heels, girly gossip, flouncy skirts and exciting hairdos. They never seem to hanker after the "wife-work" aspects like carrying the mental load of making and remembering everyone's dental appointments, being paid less, meal planning, budgeting, or juggling work and childcare, somehow. It's a bit selective when you can identify into being female but leave out the oppressive bits. The very bits the f to m transitioners are fleeing!

So George's sex was female, but her gender was male, quite simple really

And if we did away with stereotyped views of what females and males are supposed to be like, she could have just been female and not needed to have a “gender” at all.

I think she thinks she's being super progressive but doesn't actually understand the implications of what she's saying.

A bit of history - gender theory was established in the social sciences and humanities in the 1960s and 70s and it highlighted the fact that the "masculine" and "feminine" characteristics of women and men have been moulded by their socio-cultural context. So, proper women like pink frilly things and are weak and faint at the sight of blood. Proper men are courageous and love to kill things.

The academics highlighted that gender stereotypes are socially constructed and bear little resemblance to biological sex. So, not all men like killing things and women bleed every month and so definitely don't faint when they change their knickers. In studying our cultural present and past and calling out these stereotypes, perhaps they can be deconstructed and both sexes won't be limited by their gender in the future. E.g., a woman won't be passed over for promotion because she's too weak and emotional to handle Big Important Board Meetings.

Unfortunately, instead of gender theory deconstructing stereotypes and unlocking the many many different kinds woman a female can be (or man a male can be), the opposite has happened. So, if a woman doesn't feel like she's Feminine Female, then she's actually Masculine Male stuck in a woman's body. (and vice versa).

Instead of actually widening peoples view on what someone should be like regardless of their sex, they've created more and more boxes to put people in.

Completely this

It's not really a generational thing.... I'm sure, being as I am, an 'old fogey' you are familiar with the 'Famous Five' books by Enid Blyton. One of whom George, was really Georgina - but she wouldn't let anyone call her that and she liked to cut her hair short, because she wanted to be a boy. So George's sex was female, but her gender was male, quite simple really

This is a brilliant exposition of the regressive sexist ideas behind this ideology. Telling girls that if they like being active and adventurous and short hair, then they have a male soul. It couldn't possibly be that they are fully girls who like being active and adventurous and short hair.

@PrettyVacancy

Oi, enough breadstickphobia already! 🤣

If you were born short soft and wide you might prefer to identify as a Bap because nobody's ever going to believe you're a real breadstick.

Identifying as a thin crunchy breadstick is pretty crummy for us baps.

*It's not really a generational thing.... I'm sure, being as I am, an 'old fogey' you are familiar with the 'Famous Five' books by Enid Blyton. One of whom George, was really Georgina - but she wouldn't let anyone call her that and she liked to cut her hair short, because she wanted to be a boy.

So George's sex was female, but her gender was male, quite simple really.*

Bringing George into this is brilliant but not because of those reasons. What are the differences between the way Anne and George were treated? George was treated as a boy and given male privilege and Anne wasn't allowed to go on adventures because she 'was a girl'.

George didn't conform to typical feminine characteristics perhaps because of the misogyny she encountered when she did so. Anne was always left at home and George joined the boys on adventures. She was what is called a 'tomboy' or a girl that acts in stereotypically masculine way.

I used to be like George. I hated dresses, had short hair, wore trousers, didn't do pink. I was brought up in a fairly misogynist household during the 70s which was renowned for sexism. I hated 'girls stuff' because it was associated with being weak and boring - like girls. I never thought I was a boy or wanted to be a boy, I just didn't want to be dismissed and called names simply because of my sex.

I see nothing but misogyny and homophobia in gender ideology. I see nothing but strict societal conformity in 'boys things' and 'girls things' I see a huge step backwards in 'lady brain'. It's the most dreadful and oppressive nonsense.