"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

@PrettyVacancy

Oi, enough breadstickphobia already! 🤣

Nothing surprises me any more. Could genuinely see breadstickphobia being a thing in the future.

So if your gender identity is 'woman' ....What do you think that being female (sex) has got to do with being a woman (gender identity)?

Sorry, this idea that woman is a gender identity is being bandied about on this thread like that is a fact.
In English we have words that denote the male and female of different species. SO a female fox is a 'vixen' a male is a 'dog', a female bird is a 'hen' a male is a 'cock, and so on. For humans, the word for a female is 'woman' and male 'man'. This has always been what the word 'woman' and 'man' has meant.

Some people who advance the recent gender ideology have chosen, for the reason of promoting their ideology, to seek to change the word 'woman' to denote a 'gender identity.'

This change of meaning has very real world consequences for women (defined by their female sex) and is not without controversy. it also means we do not now have a word to denote an adult human female and that is actually a very useful word to have. Which is why is existed in language in the first place.

The trans-Korean person is on this morning atm. If anyone is interested.

Anyone who was genuinely not fussed about gender stereotypes would just reply "no we don't know the the sex of the baby yet."

She's just virtue signalling. It's a load of tosh. I've been asked the same question over and over throughout my pregnancy and it's never occurred to me to say something like that in response. What a cringe.

Also, how long will it be until this gets moved to the naughty corner? 🤔

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

Ok then *@moreofthisagain* but can you explain why it's ok to identify as the opposite sex but that guy has been torn apart for identifying as a Korean? Why is one accepted and validated but not another? If it's possible to be gender dysphoria, then is it not possible to be nationality dysphoric? Or what about even species dysphoric?

I think this question reflects the negative consequences of Stonewall et al conflating people with the gender dysphoria with those with 'divergent gender identities'. The latter I see as a (incredibly recent) social phenomena, that doesn't seem to have a real base in anything other than being a social phenomena (from what I can make out). I put the Korean guy and the 'trans species' people into that.

I've read quite a lot of account from people who are non-binary to try to understand their perspective. And their accounts don't sound to me anything like the accounts of people who have gender dysphoria.

If that is the case @moreofthisagain I don't understand how 'gender dysphoria' doesn't have a definition as such, that it isn't viewed as a psychological condition, if it is so different to 'divergent gender identities' and people who want to identify as another nationality- if they are just part of a recent social phenomena.

A match of sex and gender surely just mean that the person feels their gender is at one with their sex, as apposed to someone with gender dysphoria who feels their gender is at odds with their sex.

A match of sex and gender doesn't mean that they have to dress in pink frills if they are a woman or have a big butch attitude to life if they are a man.

Woman are not drag queens they are nuanced human beings. They are perfectly able feel happy to be a woman in a woman's body whilst enjoying less traditionally womanly things.

The same with men. Many men can appear quite 'camp' but will have no thought that their gender is anything but male.

It seems to me that this idea that there are hundreds of different genders is a ridiculous attempt at trying to pigeonhole people. Confining them into some sort of stereotype at all costs.

When I was growing up people didn't bang on about gender and certainly, there were people who didn't fit into the usual male or female stereotypes, they got on with life, they didn't need labels to tell them what they were.

Why do we need to slot everyone in somewhere and confine them. I prefer to accept that all human beings are different and on a spectrum of male and female without all this silly labelling.

Gender dysphoria means a fundamental sense that you do not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth as a result of your biological sex.

This means nothing. Nobody is 'assigned' a gender at birth on the basis of biological sex.

Whenever a very young mtf transitioner makes the news, it is always about the fact that they want to wear dresses, play with dolls and like the colour pink.

Just call it 'it'. You can't go wrong with 'it' ;-)

Sex and gender mean the same thing surely? "Gender roles" or "gender expectations" (and also expectations based on someone's sex) may be a social thing but the gender/sex has to be defined and must come first else it's meaningless.

How can we meaningfully talk about the societal role or societal expectation of a certain person if we aren't identifying what they are biologically to start with?

We might as well say "some people think blobby people are more nurturing" which is a societal expectation that's based on biological sex, take that away and you're none the wiser about why that might be true or false about a blobby person.

And we need to talk meaningfully about such expectations so we can challenge the assumptions and remove inequalities.

You can’t “observe” gender in the womb. You can test whether the baby has xx or xy chromosomes, or you can see what type of genitals the fetus has. The “sex” is shorthand for these observations. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say “sex properties” or “characteristics” but nobody wants to sound that pretentious I guess.

'Gender' always relies on sex steriotypes to justify the whole thing.
If a baby boy likes pink he will be conditioned to think he's a girl under gender ideology.

I said something pretty similar when I was pregnant, although these days I think I would say "we can know its sex but not its sex-stereotyped personality traits."

Yep. The actual translation of "gender"

@Xoxoxoxoxoxox

'Gender' always relies on sex steriotypes to justify the whole thing. If a baby boy likes pink he will be conditioned to think he's a girl under gender ideology.

Exactly.

Gender and sex cannot match or be at odds unless you are talking about stereotypes placed on one particular sex.

What makes a gender "match" the female or male sex if not stereotypes?

What people actually mean is they associate more with typical female stereotypes (for example) and therefore they must be a woman. But it's a load of tosh. Stereotypes do not make you male or female / he or she etc... You're just a male who associates more with typically female stereotypes or vice versa.

She’s really saying “we can know its sex but not its personality”.

Anything else makes no sense.

For people that say that this isn't related to stereotypes, you should look at the diagnostic criteria for children in the DSM-5 - www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

"The DSM-5 defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender"

Which ones of those aren't stereotypes?

Gender dysphoria means a fundamental sense that you do not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth as a result of your biological sex

But what I don't like about this is say a male doesn't identify with the gender he was "assigned" at birth, we now have to call him she/her because they identify with that particular gender. But how on earth is that not down to stereotypes of women wearing dresses/make up etc... Of course it bloody is.

What people actually mean is they associate more with typical female stereotypes (for example) and therefore they must be a woman. But it's a load of tosh. Stereotypes do not make you male or female / he or she etc... You're just a male who associates more with typically female stereotypes or vice versa.

And it's so frustrating, it's undoing everything women have worked for since I can remember growing up in the 80's/90's, we fought to get ourselves out of those boxes and a generation later and we're being stuffed right back in there under a different guise

I'd read it as, the baby is born whatever biological sex it is but what gender it identifies as will be its own choice as it grows up.

Why does gender matter at all? Genuine question

@AryaStarkWolf

What people actually mean is they associate more with typical female stereotypes (for example) and therefore they must be a woman. But it's a load of tosh. Stereotypes do not make you male or female / he or she etc... You're just a male who associates more with typically female stereotypes or vice versa.

And it's so frustrating, it's undoing everything women have worked for since I can remember growing up in the 80's/90's, we fought to get ourselves out of those boxes and a generation later and we're being stuffed right back in there under a different guise

And we're called phobic for resisting it too.

It's actually scary how many women seem to be taking an active role in their own regression these days.

@minipie

She’s really saying “we can know its sex but not its personality”.

Anything else makes no sense.

And it also makes no sense for anyone to need to specify this either but this is where we are at these days. The mind boggles.

She's virtue signalling.

I really hate this subject. It's so so infuriating.

I really don't give a damn if people want to break free of sex stereotypes, it can only be a good thing. You're a man and want to wear a dress and heels? Fucking go for it.

But when you start demanding that you are now a she or her because your gender (which is just socially constructed stereotypes) doesn't "match" your sex. No, get to fuck with that. You don't understand being a woman because you relate to stereotypes placed on us.

And we're called phobic for resisting it too.

It's actually scary how many women seem to be taking an active role in their own regression these days.

It is scary, they don't have a clue because they had the luxury of not living through the amount of sexism and discrimination based on sex (not gender actual biological sex) as us older women did.