"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

I'd probably reply with "gender? Isn't that a tool of the patriarchy, why would you believe in that?"

[quote Manicpixiedreammollusc]@Mischance

“ gender dysphoria could be abolished as a diagnosis because no-one gave a flying toss who wears what or what their interests are.”

But this isn’t true - you might not give a toss, but for people with gender dysphoria, it is hugely important and can be a source of great distress. Also, it’s not considered a mental health condition, so isn’t diagnosed as such.[/quote]
I agree with you @Manicpixiedreammollusc.

Gender dysphoria is more than wanting to wear certain clothes. Its a real condition that presents differently in different people. Some feel dysphoric about how others perceive them and have a desperate need to be perceived as the opposite sex, and so need to fully 'pass'. Others are dysphoric about their bodies or genitals and see surgery as the way to mitigate those feelings.

Some find ways to manage their dysphoria without a need to change their bodies or appearance.

But its definitely more than wanting to wear a dress in public without people giving you shit for it.

Gender is social and cultural. It’s not biologically determined. Most people’s gender and sex happen to be the same, but some people’s aren’t the same

@Gladiolys.

I don't see how those first two sentences square with the last sentence?

But this isn’t true - you might not give a toss, but for people with gender dysphoria, it is hugely important and can be a source of great distress. Also, it’s not considered a mental health condition, so isn’t diagnosed as such.

Genuinely not trying to be unkind- I'm just struggling to understand how it isn't considered a mental health condition?

Or is it because gender isn't actually a thing? Biological sex is a reality- but gender isn't because it's just a social construct that puts people in boxes. It's almost like a 'belief' as it were- and not everyone believes it.

I used the analogy of religion earlier- is it effectively the same as a religious person feeling distressed at questioning their faith? Because that wouldn't be classed as a mental health condition either.

Genuinely trying to work out what gender dysphoria is and not trying to be offensive.

I would recommend that you all take a look at the Women’s Rights - ‘Feminism: sex and gender debate’ on Mumsnet. I’ve been following the board for some years now and have had my eyes well and truly opened by the posts there.

@moreofthisagain

I've read a bit more of the thread now.

How did gender become a 'thing' that one 'discovers.'

Its not that. Its only useful meaning is to describe the limiting stereotypes that society places on the sexes. Its not something WITHIN someone.. Its something that society from WITHOUT tries to impose on individuals.

The thing to do is to encourage children to see themselves as individuals who do not need to limit themselves in any way because of their sex, and who have agency to grow and develop their personalities as they go through life.

Not to encourage them to believe they are each limited by an innate 'gender' that they need to 'discover.'

Brilliant post, agree 100%.

Gender dysphoria is more than wanting to wear certain clothes. Its a real condition that presents differently in different people.

But if it's a condition as you've described, what kind of condition, if not psychological?

I don't see a problem with what she said. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct. She hasn't said whether she believes it is possible to change sex, just gender. I would have thought most of us agree that gender is based on stereotypical bullshit enforced by society so it can be fluid or not considered important at all.

@Toseland

I would recommend that you all take a look at the Women’s Rights - ‘Feminism: sex and gender debate’ on Mumsnet. I’ve been following the board for some years now and have had my eyes well and truly opened by the posts there.

I'm amazed Mumsnet having pinged it over there already. They certainly like keeping the regulars there 'in our box'.

She means, when it comes out they'll know if it has genitals but she'll have to wait a decade or so to find out what her lifestyle and parenting has done to its psyche. Meanwhile they'll give it a one-size-fits-all pronoun and name (like Leaf) and swaddle it until it can talk enough to express it's clothing preference. She will EBF until it's 5 then it will wean itself onto raw broccolli and Kombucha.

I think she's referring to the fact that these days people seem to think you can be a man, woman or a fucking unicorn if you feel like it, regardless as to whether you have a vagina or a penis and everyone else has to pretend to agree that you are in fact a man, woman or fucking unicorn.

Gladiolys
I don’t really understand what you mean by ‘which ones match’. It’s not like a ‘draw the line puzzle’ in a kids book if that’s what you’re envisaging.

Gender is social and cultural. It’s not biologically determined. Most people’s gender and sex happen to be the same, but some people’s aren’t the same.

I'm only going on what several people have asserted here. Gender-sex combinations that 'match' or 'correspond' or 'correlate'.

So if your gender identity is 'woman' what sex would match or "be the same" to use your words? Presumably 'female'? But why?

What do you think that being female (sex) has got to do with being a woman (gender identity)?
Is there some overlap between body and gender? If so, what? I posted several times trying to elaborate on my question so feel free to read my other posts.

Given that the woman wasn’t asked what gender her unborn child was, why did she answer that question? The equivalent is someone asking me the time and me replying , “I can’t be sure, but probably raspberry”. How odd would that be?

I’m also interested to find out what sex and gender combinations ‘match’? If no one can answer this question I shall assume gender is impossible to define and, therefore, completely irrelevant.

She's saying her baby could be born as genetically male or female but could identify as a breadstick.

There are times when 'Wotevah' is the only way forward.

What I find interesting about this, just for myself, is that in the simpler world of 5+ years ago, I'd have said something like she did.

I'd have meant 'we can know the sex but not the personality, the relationship this person negotiates with the society they live in, so how and who they turn out to be as an adult, and I'm not keen on pushing that in a gender-stereotypical direction, so hold back on the pink or blue please'. Gender as a social construct.

And I'd have been being a bit of a clever clogs.

I wouldn't say it now though. Just 'sex is boy or girl' (meaning male or female). Because I'd be aware that saying 'we cannot know the gender' could be taken to mean 'we cannot yet see its innately gendered soul (that just happens to match the gender stereotypes of this society, at this time)'.

@EverdeRose

She's saying her baby could be born as genetically male or female but could identify as a breadstick.

If you identify as a breadstick, what does that mean? Is that a condition? What about the guy who identified as a Korean?

Oi, enough breadstickphobia already! 🤣

@PrettyVacancy

Oi, enough breadstickphobia already! 🤣

I don't want any breadsticks in my changing area, thank you

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

Gender dysphoria is more than wanting to wear certain clothes. Its a real condition that presents differently in different people.

But if it's a condition as you've described, what kind of condition, if not psychological?

I have no idea. I'm not a medic of any sort. I don't even know what the definition of a psychological or mental health illness is.

I don't know if anyone even knows why some people have gender dsyphoria..

But there doesn't seem any doubt that its a real condition that really affects people and can be very distressing for those who have it.

And it seems to me that their experiences are quite different from the other people they have been lumped with under the vastly expanded 'trans' umbrella under this recent gender ideology.

If gender is nothing to do with sex and isn't just about stereotypes either (i.e women wearing a dress) then how can a gender match with sex?

What is it about a woman (gender) that matches with the female (sex)?

Let's face it... It's everything to do with sex stereotypes. Otherwise no one would feel the need to change it / state they are one or the other.

@Teaandbicciesplease

But how can people believe that gender is a social construct while simultaneously believing that trans women are women because trans women identify with all the gender stereotyping of being a woman? Clothes, hair make up, heels, etc.

If you drew a Venn diagram with the two circles labelled "believes gender is a social construct" and "believes TWAW", there would be be very little overlap in the middle.

Gender, IMO, is what we used to call 'personality' and now is just a set of stereotypes, usually sexist.

The cognitive dissonance of people who claim they want to break free of gender sterotypes, whilst at the same time placing themselves into labelled boxes - cis, trans (which no longer means transsexual but a whole range of things), non binary/genderqueer, etc you'd think would send them into a tailspin.

But no, go on gender wiki and see. There's 245 of the things, all with a flag, pronouns galore, from Abimegender (apparently something to do with gender in an infinite paradox), to Zodiacgender (one or multiple zodiac signs affecting your gender )

I think a lot of this is a whole generation raised on social media, wanting to feel unique and special, but also to find their tribe and belong. And as part of their new identity they get power, compelling people to acknowledge their specialness, and celebrate them, use their pronouns, give them attention. And people do comply, lest they be labelled as a bigot.

Now I do not doubt that gender dysphoria exists just for clarification.

But gender as a label per the above, I view as a load of attention seeking wank.

Ok then @moreofthisagain but can you explain why it's ok to identify as the opposite sex but that guy has been torn apart for identifying as a Korean? Why is one accepted and validated but not another? If it's possible to be gender dysphoria, then is it not possible to be nationality dysphoric? Or what about even species dysphoric?