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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask Mumsnet to reconsider a decision

439 replies

Mummyoflittledragon · 05/07/2021 15:46

… to relegate certain threads from the AIBU board.

I imagine AIBU is probably the most active board on Mumsnet and therefore reaches the highest audience. Now when someone creates a thread about children’s boundaries being crossed by certain people and women being scared into silence and being attacked by certain groups, the thread quickly disappears out of AIBU and onto another board.

Once off AIBU, the thread receives far less exposure thus radically reduces the possibility to offer information to the widest possible audience. Information, which could be used to help people and particularly women make safety and / or safeguarding decisions about themselves and their children.

Mumsnet to me is like the BBC (in its hey day) of parenting sites. And as Mumsnet is renowned for being such an esteemed hub for information, AIBU to ask Mumsnet to not give in to outside pressure from certain groups and to stop relegating important informational threads without looking at the wider implications.

OP posts:
GromblesofGrimbledon · 07/07/2021 15:45

@Batsy

I wish i knew the answer, i do believe in Trans folx having rights, but like a lot of people, i'm as puzzled as the next person on how to resolve the female bodied right to private, single biological sex spaces, with not making Trans women (or men) feel excluded or discriminated against.

It's a tricky one. This is going to sound harsh but, I'm not convinced that there is a way to reconcile everyone's competing rights in life. That's the trans lot in life. We all have our lot in life.

An example: Deaf people can't expect everyone to learn sign language. However, they can fight to pass the BSL Act (in England anyway, we already have this Act in Scotland), they can campaign for more awareness, they can campaign for BSL as an option on the school curriculum, they can campaign for universal access to subtitles on TV and in films.

The Deaf community do all of this and more. They have their lot in life and they suffer for it because they are a minority. They have to fight to make hearing people aware of their rich culture, their language, and they have to fight for access.

We all have our struggles and we all have to co-exist.

It's time for trans people to fight their cause in a way that doesn't trample on the rights of women and girls. Trans women are not women and so cannot expect to simply take what we have. Some things can be reconciled, yes. Absolutely. Some cannot. It's not for women to bend over backwards and hand over hard-won rights to a tiny minority of men who would like to identify as women.

CorvusPurpureus · 07/07/2021 15:46

I would say the simplest thing is for this particular spa, & others which wish to retain their valued cultural tradition of providing single sex nude spaces, to enforce a single sex policy.

As many PPs have pointed out, someone who suffers horribly from gender dysphoria & is distressed by their sexed body, & in particular their genitals, is unlikely to want to expose said genitals in public.

If you are male but desperately, unhappily, identify as female, you aren't going to want to sit around in the nip EITHER with a bunch of naked blokes (reinforcing your awareness of your own male body) OR a bunch of women & girls who are visibly disconcerted - at least - by your exposing said male body.

So the shy gender dysphoric males/transwomen envisaged by PPs muttering about transphobia will self exclude...such a place would be their worst nightmare.

(& that's just for their own sake, leaving aside that there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't also be perfectly lovely empathetic types who would hate to cause distress to women & girls).

If instead, you're actually just a person with a willy who enjoys showing it to naked women & little girls...I think most of us would agree that you should be...discouraged...from doing so.

Whatever you might - truthfully or otherwise - tell staff & other customers about your identity or your motivations.

There are of course no doubt lots of people who like the idea of mixed sex nude facilities, which is absolutely fine, & if there's demand for them then that's great. They should be clearly advertised & described as such, & probably for over 18s only.

There will also be facilities that ban nudity as suggested upthread, & can happily accommodate both sexes, all genders, & all age groups. With their swimming cossies on.

Then everyone's happy, surely?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/07/2021 15:48

The issue here is- if you are inclusive to transwomen, who is excluded by that? For example, if a space is nominally inclusive to everyone, I think we can know that that means particular groups will dominate and other groups will be pushed down.

Here's an interesting thread about the ramifications of inclusivity in a different context.

"I asked a close friend for his thoughts on what I should tweet for #WorldAIDSDay. He’s what he sent me.

A thread from a gay man living with HIV.

1/ On 27th July 2015 I was diagnosed with HIV at Chalmers street clinic, Edinburgh. It really ruined the festival for me that year.

2/ I barely left my flat for four weeks. I also didn’t wash, change my clothes or eat regularly. I cried a lot and thought about suicide even more. I did leave the house daily to attend hurriedly arranged appointments at Chalmers Street because they had got it wrong obviously.

3/ They hadn’t. Didn’t see a single show at the fringe either. I’d split up with my partner 2 months earlier. I lost my new job, that happens when you don’t turn up for 4 weeks. So new start completely fucked then. Rent isn’t free so you can imagine how my finances were going.

4/ It felt like everything was ending. I mean, it was. I was on the edge of a complete mental break and suicidal. I was dragged back from the edge by the amazing team at the Chalmers Street Clinic and the ever-patient Gay Men’s Health Edinburgh.

5/ I couldn’t talk about this with anyone who was not a gay man. I’m not saying that’s reasonable or fair. But yes, I wanted to exclude everyone who was not a gay man from that conversation, in that space.

6/ I’d previously volunteered for Gay Men’s Health. One time, a couple of straight kids knocked the door looking for “johnnies”. They were swiftly told to beat it, with appropriate directions to the nearest family planning clinic.

7/ The member of staff explained that their services and funds were explicitly for gay men. Although they didn’t, they could employ exclusively gay men if they wanted to. It’s weird but I always remembered that and in that moment it’s what brought me comfort.

8/ I felt able to reach out and talk to them. They could accommodate my need for exclusion. Gay men only. My safe space. They had women on staff, heterosexual mothers & everything. However, my request for gay councillors was handled with nothing but compassion & understanding.

9/ I needed the services of a councillor as much as the doctor because two things had become apparent. 1) I was HIV positive. This condition is fatal if you do not receive treatment. 2) I wanted to kill myself. This condition is fatal if you do not receive treatment.

10/ I could not have got through it without the help of Gay Men’s Health. I would not have contacted them if they were not specifically gay. I wouldn’t have been able to talk to anyone who wasn’t a gay man. More than that I needed to feel safe in asking for that.

11/ I think I probably would have ended it all if I couldn’t access those services. If they had been “Queer, Gender Diverse, Non-binary, Trans People’s Health” I would not have contacted them. My fear of talking to anyone who is not gay regarding my HIV would have prevented me.

12/ I don’t like to talk about HIV. I don’t like to talk about me having it. Don’t mistake that for me having even half a fuck to give about what anyone else thinks about my diagnosis. Because I don’t. No fucks given. That’s the easy part.

13/ It’s what I think that’s the problem. I’m not ashamed, I just can’t forgive myself. And I hate myself for getting it. I don’t talk about it openly because I would hate it more if other HIV positive people heard it and thought I thought the same about them. I don’t.

14/ Most people with HIV blow my mind with their bravery and the example they set. I wish I was like them. I’m not. I still need someone to talk to sometimes. I still need that person to be a gay man. I still need those services and spaces.

15/ Happy endings only happen in massage parlours. This, unfortunately, is real life. Things have got better. I’m not a danger to myself or others most of the time. I’m adjusting. Still. I’m not trying to weaponise my diagnosis against anyone.

16/ Many different people from different communities have HIV. Everyone is important and should be equal in rights to treatment. My HIV diagnosis emphasises to me the importance of services specifically for gay men. Be it mental health or specific medical ones.

17/ It troubles me that in a world where queer theory & gender ideology reign supreme, where gay men won’t exist, that our services, & specifically their funding, won’t exist either. When it comes to the mental health aspect of my treatment, I still want to speak to a gay man.

18/ I still want to be ‘exclusionary’ & talk to someone who is like me. Even if that means excluding buttergasp trans people. We hear a lot about suicide prevention & lived experience. Services that are specifically for gay men prevent suicide. That’s my lived experience.

19/ I would have tweeted about this myself, instead of anonymously, but didn’t want to open myself up to that sort of online abuse that comes from saying anything that doesn’t include trans; just for standing up for services aimed at supporting any distinct group."

Taken from twitter.com/HumanGayMale/status/1333746146884411399?s=19

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/07/2021 16:13

It's a tricky one. This is going to sound harsh but, I'm not convinced that there is a way to reconcile everyone's competing rights in life.

There isn't. Some things are a zero sum game. It isn't possible to create a woman friendly space where the majority of women's privacy and dignity and wish for female only space is respected and also include a narrow, select group of males depending on how nice and harmless they are. As Datun has said many times, even when there are mixed sex spaces they can use and their female friends can join them in, what they want is a space where only women are, IMO most often to feel validated. It's ok for women to come first sometimes.

Helleofabore · 07/07/2021 16:53

Maybe this article will be of interest. MondayYoghurt posted it on another thread.

nypost.com/2021/07/06/furor-over-trans-in-la-spa-proves-progressives-arent-really-feminists-after-all/

It cuts quite to the heart of the matter.

Mummyoflittledragon · 07/07/2021 17:18

I am following the boy in dd’s guide unit thread. This is an op, who didn’t know that the opposite sex could join if they identified as trans girls.

I don’t understand why this thread is considered a debate when GG is allowing some boys in and some boys not and working against the current U.K. equality law as stands. What is there to debate? Isn’t it an informational thread?

Was that thread moved?

OP posts:
ClosdesMouches · 09/07/2021 17:36

YANBU OP.

MNHQ moves threads out of AIBU from one side of the 'debate' over to relative obscurity in S&G board, but allows (invariably goady) TRA threads to stand in AIBU.

EndoplasmicReticulum · 09/07/2021 18:23

You noticed that as well? Am watching that thread to see what happens to it.

RickiTarr · 09/07/2021 19:32

What’s S&G?

Waitwhat23 · 09/07/2021 19:46

Sex and Gender

RickiTarr · 09/07/2021 21:08

Doh. Of course it is.

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/07/2021 10:46

@EndoplasmicReticulum

You noticed that as well? Am watching that thread to see what happens to it.
Did the thread get moved?
OP posts:
EndoplasmicReticulum · 10/07/2021 10:59

Nope, still there.
Which is fair enough, but the reasoning for what gets moved and what doesn't seems inconsistent.

Mummyoflittledragon · 10/07/2021 13:19

Yes, very inconsistent. This is the point of my thread, obvs.

I think if I disagree with a decision next time, I will report. Perhaps other mumsnetters, could do the same rather than just posting they’re disappointed on the thread?

OP posts:
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