AIBU to ask Mumsnet to reconsider a decision

[Mummyoflittledragon]

… to relegate certain threads from the AIBU board.

I imagine AIBU is probably the most active board on Mumsnet and therefore reaches the highest audience. Now when someone creates a thread about children’s boundaries being crossed by certain people and women being scared into silence and being attacked by certain groups, the thread quickly disappears out of AIBU and onto another board.

Once off AIBU, the thread receives far less exposure thus radically reduces the possibility to offer information to the widest possible audience. Information, which could be used to help people and particularly women make safety and / or safeguarding decisions about themselves and their children.

Mumsnet to me is like the BBC (in its hey day) of parenting sites. And as Mumsnet is renowned for being such an esteemed hub for information, AIBU to ask Mumsnet to not give in to outside pressure from certain groups and to stop relegating important informational threads without looking at the wider implications.

Remember when the argument used to be "men are going to flash/ sexually assault/ rape etc whatever, they're not going to pretend to be trans just to access somewhere they can just walk in to anyway" (which involves the rather problematic concept that it's even possible to claim to be trans but not be trans, yet everywhere else it's the claiming to be trans that makes you trans, as there is no other criteria and if you think it's about gender dysphoria that's also transphobic)
"What difference will it make to allow self-ID'd trans women into single-sex spaces? If anyone does anything bad they can easily report it".

This is what the difference is.

Remember when the argument used to be "men are going to flash/ sexually assault/ rape etc whatever

And not just from randoms on Twitter. The outgoing boss of Stonewall, Ruth Hunt, said it in a Guardian interview:

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/19/ruth-hunt-stonewall-moral-responsibility-fight-trans-people

The question over whether gender self-identification “will lead to men raping women” is, she says, the wrong one. “Men are always going to rape women. The question should be: ‘Will the increase in gender fluidity increase the risk of men masquerading as women?’ Let’s talk about that.

Yes Ruth, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about it widely and where everyone can see what it means.

Yes Ruth, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about it widely and where everyone can see what it means

It doesn't help that any result in am invrease in violence/assults/harassment can only be discussed in relation to one particular group of people. The fear is somehow acceptable reason to remove the boundaries of women and girls without their consent to protect trabswonenfrom.male violence. However the sane fear women feel from the increased risk of male violence by spaces becoming mixed sex, is bigotry.

I completely agree, but I find that completely at odds with your usual statements!

Not really. I have always been happy accepting that different views exist. I think some are wrong and immoral, as I think you do likewise, but you and I have absolutely got the right to hold those views, however wrongheaded others may think they are.

But what I do deplore is this childish, selfish sense of entitlement to think one should be able to curate a whole talk forum for thousands others around what you personally do and don't wish to see. When you can just scroll on by. And sad to see it pandered to on Mumsnet.

AIBU is a general forum where people post a range of things varying from controversial opinions about politics to what a man did to their trolley in the supermarket and what flavours of crisps they like. It's always had people posting for traffic. With the poll feature MN has allowed people to post pretty much anything.

It's as much my topic as it is that of any other person on this thread. I don't solely read FWR.

But what I do deplore is this childish, selfish sense of entitlement to think one should be able to curate a whole talk forum for thousands others around what you personally do and don't wish to see. When you can just scroll on by. And sad to see it pandered to on Mumsnet.

Absolutely!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I completely agree, but I find that completely at odds with your usual statements!

Not really. I have always been happy accepting that different views exist. I think some are wrong and immoral, as I think you do likewise, but you and I have absolutely got the right to hold those views, however wrongheaded others may think they are.

This goes back to posters thinking that everyone on one ‘side’ (fucking hate that word in this context) or the other thinks the same way

Which obviously we don’t

I dont include you or the original poster you quoted in my comment, but its very easily seen on lots of thread.

GC posters are????? for example, even though some posters aren’t GC (especially as the meaning of this seems to have changed)

The amount of prejudice conveyed in the labeling of ‘GC’ is very evident. I am not sure that posters actually see that they are so prejudiced that they then dismiss what should be considered gold standard safeguarding.

The absolute hypocrisy is staggering but that is the current approach- deny anything that is said by someone you disagree with. Even if it accepted by the majority of people as being good practice for safeguarding.

Why? Because you cannot believe the poll at the top of the thread that categorically points out that the majority feel it is a topic that should be able to be discussed on an AIBU thread on the main board.

Because it is a topic that potentially affects everyone!

@Landlockedgirl

I am becoming increasingly disturbed by some of the comments on this thread. The previous thread that was moved was about child safeguarding but it appears that some people have lost sight of what that means. I worry that I am out of touch with current societal norms. Do people really think it is acceptable for a male bodied person to blatantly expose their genitals to a child? I’m even more interested to know what the poll result would have revealed. Having worked with survivors of sexual abuse and assault for decades I am extremely worried if society now condones what a few years ago would have been a criminal offence.

no i don't

and funnily enough, the few Trans friends i've ask about this, are equally horrified, and wouldn't for a moment DREAM of doing what this guy did.

People need to learn the difference between Trans Woman, and Pervert.

The male-bodied person in question in the moved thread is most likely a pervert.

There is nothing inherantly sexual about nudity, the human body is the human body.. but there are times and places where it is not societally appropriate for an adult body to be naked around strangers, and, regardless of your Gender ID, that ought to be common sense.

@Helleofabore

The amount of prejudice conveyed in the labeling of ‘GC’ is very evident. I am not sure that posters actually see that they are so prejudiced that they then dismiss what should be considered gold standard safeguarding.

The absolute hypocrisy is staggering but that is the current approach- deny anything that is said by someone you disagree with. Even if it accepted by the majority of people as being good practice for safeguarding.

Why? Because you cannot believe the poll at the top of the thread that categorically points out that the majority feel it is a topic that should be able to be discussed on an AIBU thread on the main board.

Because it is a topic that potentially affects everyone!

This is exactly how I feel. I am so shocked at the number of posters, who’ve just said oh it’s trans, I don’t want to see that GC crap. Get it out of my face and hidden in the sex and gender topic, where I either don’t look or will argue my views.

This is not a thread about trans ffs.

Sadly Mumsnet are going to look at the results of this poll - if they even look at it and think ‘oh well, we are doing ok, nothing to see, move along’. In so doing as Ereshkigalangcleg has said, Mumsnet is pandering to childish, self entitlement of certain people, whose sensibilities can’t be triggered when they could just scroll on.

So my question then is, is why are so many disagreeing with the AIBU when this thread is about important safeguarding? Do they really, genuinely not care?

It's interesting that so many of the usual suspects zeroed in on this thread like a lightning rod when they claim they simply can't bear to see any threads about women's sex-based rights.

I think there are an enormous number of people who really do not care about women, about children, about safeguarding the vulnerable.
Just look at the statistics around CSA, trafficking, pornography, rape. The incidence of all these things is now so huge that the police cannot cope, the prisons cannot cope, rape is practically legal, rough sex gone wrong is considered a reasonable excuse for murder. One rape a day in schools. 3 women a week murdered, young teenagers stabbed and shot daily.
This is where we are.

I think there are an enormous number of people who really do not care about women, about children, about safeguarding the vulnerable.

Yes, there are.

Then consider the increasing removal of women's rights to contraception and abortion, removal of control over their own bodies.

🙄

Yes it is interesting and precisely why I didn’t want this thread to be about trans vs GC. I hoped leaving the word trans out of the title would be enough. Sadly not.

I also think posters, who create a thread about safeguarding would also be wise to think about the assumptions they are making about a particular person and the language they are using. A thread, which has trans somewhere in the op is unlikely to stay in AIBU or chat if they’ve started it there even if it is purely about safeguarding.

I know if I were writing the op again, I’d word it differently because of the brilliant post from some knowledgeable posters on the issue. And I can see I nearly fell into the trap of saying too much.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's interesting that so many of the usual suspects zeroed in on this thread like a lightning rod when they claim they simply can't bear to see any threads about women's sex-based rights.

Oops. I meant to quote.

@Cazzovuoi

Unfortunately many women on here don’t see an issue with a female penis being allowed in a female only spa or care that women who have worked for years training for a special sports event are being cheated out of a medal. We’re just big fat hairy bigots or it doesn’t bother them because it doesn’t (yet) directly impact them

Don't say things like female penis because there is absolutely no such thing. Female is also a biologically sexed word

People need to learn the difference between Trans Woman, and Pervert.

Yes well, if all male predators were so easy to pick out and walked around with a sign on their foreheads we’d be right, wouldn’t we?

Back to reality, we have to take safeguarding measures and assume all males are equally possible of being predatory, and most males accept that as necessary because of the behaviour of the rest of their sex class.

As soon as it’s easy to determine who the genuine trans people are and those who aren’t, it would be a step forward. Then it needs to be explained why children should accept being exposed to the naked body of nice people, as if that makes it any better for them .

Finally, to keep the thread on track, it’s clear this is discussion that needs to be had with everyone given it affects anyone with children.

People need to learn the difference between Trans Woman, and Pervert.

The male-bodied person in question in the moved thread is most likely a pervert.

So, and this is the question people always ignore - how would you draft a policy for this spa that allows in trans women but prevents males who internally identify as men?

Do you think self-id (i.e. accepting that anyone (male or female sex) who says they are a woman IS a woman) achieves this?

Not everyone agrees with you and having this rammed down everyone’s throats at every opportunity, not allowing people the right to disagree and find it offensive, is annoying. Plus you lot are so persistent that everything gets swamped with this vitriol.

Ah so safeguarding is vitriol. Righto.

People need to learn the difference between Trans Woman, and Pervert

You’re literally asking women and girls to take a gamble on whether a male is a predator or not by either being sexually assaulted or not. If he doesn’t attack you he’s ok! Hurrah.

Wtf is that?!

NotBadConsidering
Everyone with children and women, or most women, who would feel extremely uncomfortable at best.