AIBU to ask Mumsnet to reconsider a decision

[Mummyoflittledragon]

… to relegate certain threads from the AIBU board.

I imagine AIBU is probably the most active board on Mumsnet and therefore reaches the highest audience. Now when someone creates a thread about children’s boundaries being crossed by certain people and women being scared into silence and being attacked by certain groups, the thread quickly disappears out of AIBU and onto another board.

Once off AIBU, the thread receives far less exposure thus radically reduces the possibility to offer information to the widest possible audience. Information, which could be used to help people and particularly women make safety and / or safeguarding decisions about themselves and their children.

Mumsnet to me is like the BBC (in its hey day) of parenting sites. And as Mumsnet is renowned for being such an esteemed hub for information, AIBU to ask Mumsnet to not give in to outside pressure from certain groups and to stop relegating important informational threads without looking at the wider implications.

The Staniland questions is pertinent here isn't it? In case readers don't know it, the question is

Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?

Helen Staniland was banned from Twitter for asking it.

But it is the question we are talking about here. What is wrong with asking the question?

@Quaggars what is wrong with answering it?

I'll go first: NO

I am becoming increasingly disturbed by some of the comments on this thread. The previous thread that was moved was about child safeguarding but it appears that some people have lost sight of what that means. I worry that I am out of touch with current societal norms. Do people really think it is acceptable for a male bodied person to blatantly expose their genitals to a child? I’m even more interested to know what the poll result would have revealed. Having worked with survivors of sexual abuse and assault for decades I am extremely worried if society now condones what a few years ago would have been a criminal offence.

@AlternativePerspective

Perhaps - if a thread with a poll got moved from AIBU but could keep its poll, that might help? would it though? If you post a transphobic thread on AIBU you will get a balanced view, move it to feminism where it belongs and people will continue to vote in favour because most people on those boards think the same way.

By the way, the (as you put it) "balanced view" before the thread was moved was 96% against penis-havers in the female section of a nude spa.

I second No.

Which leads on to the next question. What are businesses etc planning to do to make sure women and girls are safe on their premises to stop this happening? To stop little girls having to endure men's exposed cock and balls in their face.
For women to be able to go to the toilet without having to be concerned about cameras installed to record them and then uploaded to pornhub. Even my 13 year old is worried about this and checks the room carefully before undressing. It's not right. Mens access to these spaces need to be severely limited. Rather than making loss of these spaces mixed sex.

I can't believe we've reached a stage where anyone at all might think this is ok. Children deserve protection from adults. Women deserve protection from men. In a so called civilised society, this is anything but civil. This needs to be taken seriously. Rather than women being dismissed because of their beliefs, their culture, the fact simply that they are women.

Some men will go to great lengths to access women and children's bodies.

Why isn't this taken seriously?

I'll chip in with an answer to the Staniland Question.

No.

This man went as far as to buy a school so he could access and abuse children.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/04/millionaire-businessman-bought-boarding-school-abuse-pupils/

@Landlockedgirl

I am becoming increasingly disturbed by some of the comments on this thread. The previous thread that was moved was about child safeguarding but it appears that some people have lost sight of what that means. I worry that I am out of touch with current societal norms. Do people really think it is acceptable for a male bodied person to blatantly expose their genitals to a child? I’m even more interested to know what the poll result would have revealed. Having worked with survivors of sexual abuse and assault for decades I am extremely worried if society now condones what a few years ago would have been a criminal offence.

There is a movement to remove female only spaces in the UK yes. There is also a cultural movement to stop women talking about it with cries of transphobia if we do.

I don't believe society as a whole would condone this. It highlights the reason the movement wants to shut down discussion. Maya Forstater recently fought a court case to set a precedent that women are allowed to talk about this. Incredible in 2021!!

So many places have just become mixed sex as well. Which makes women and girls unsafe. Easier and cheaper for businesses I guess. At our expense.

Many that have become mixed sex also still claim to be single sex.

Its one thing to be openly mixed and another to have been mixed by stealth and the public using the service are unaware.

Another safguarding issue especially for say dad's taking out their daughters and unable to accompany them and of course for those who deliberately seek out single sex provision as its safer fir their disabled/non NT child.

Many that have become mixed sex also still claim to be single sex.

Well that's a real problem. The choice for women to consent is then taken away. That's just not right.

The reasons questions like the Staniland question and Do you believe that it is not a general safeguarding issue to have a naked male with a penis get into the hot tub with a six year old girl, including sitting on the edge of the spa with their legs apart so that the penis is at eye level to a girl less than a metre away?

are important is that it actually is very clear when you see it without any other framing.

Any attempt to deflect or distract when a poster is directly asked to answer it is clearly noticeable in an attempt to not answer a question that needs to be answered to identify potential safeguarding issues.

If people cannot answer this question in any way, perhaps they are not as clear in their boundaries on this issue as they thought. If people answer it yes, but feel they cannot own that answer in a public forum, perhaps it also means that they realise that it is a rather contentious issue and that those who say a clear 'no' are NOT the extremist minority.

Those painting this scenario as 'a singular unimportant incident', how many times does it need to happen before it is worthy of discussion in your eyes?

A little bit like those seeking to discredit the women complaining because they 'filmed in the reception', were Christian, or 'she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.'

What kind of woman stating that boundaries have been crossed and that this is not acceptable will be the 'right kind' of woman?

I have asked this question multiple times as well and not once have I had an answer from those who have stated that these women should not be given any credibility. Even from a poster stating that the woman filming in the reception was doing something more egregious than the male with his cock and balls on display and then getting into the tub with a nine year old girl....

And to come back to the theme of the thread:

• Single sex spaces all becoming mixed sex
• Loss of safeguarding mechanisms
• normalisation of exposure of males to children
• abuse of women who dare raise and confront the issues and speak out publicly

These are not “niche” areas of discussion. They’re one of the biggest social shifts of our time happening right under our noses and they should absolutely be discussed in as many places as possible. To deliberately move such a topic about an incident that is making worldwide news bringing these major discussion points to the fore is at best, misguided or at worst, complicit. I don’t wish to believe it to be the latter from MNHQ, but I do certainly believe there are posters who are desperate to keep this incident in the dark rather than exposed to the sunlight it needs.

This again illustrates the problem with wanting discussions shoved away into the basement where people have it blocked. Many women unless they follow certain people on twitter or the FWR boards will have no idea that having a bra fitting for them or their pre teen may mean having a male in the cubicle next door.

Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?

No.

Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?

No.

No bloody way would a transwoman spend all day trying to pass as a woman and then whack out a penis for all to see. The idea of having to undress in public is the stuff of nightmares for all those I've met - the very thought of going swimming would be terrifying.
@DeathByWalkies so you agree then that someone with genuine dysphoria would (at the very least) be making some attempt to hide their genitals rather than having them on full view? I think a colleague of mine used to use a band aid or similar to hold things back.

Do you also agree that the person referred to by the thread was probably not a transwomen. Bearing in mind that no one has actually said that the person did claim to be one, people have just read "penis in woman's space" and immediately jumped to the conclusion that the person was trans and that any complaints are therefore transphobic.

So with no suggestion that the person actually is trans, do you agree that a thread about a male exposing themselves to a female child isn't necessarily about trans issues and therefore doesn't have to be moved?

Thank you for your comments. Even the jaw dropping ones because they highlight on a high traffic board what small regard some people have for women and children.

As we know, knowledge is power. Armed with this knowledge, we can better protect ourselves. However I am perplexed and dismayed that so many people do not think that safeguarding / safety of women and children is not a high priority.

I have not got involved in any of the discussions because I don’t want to talk about any other issues. These can be discussed on another thread. But I am surprised at some comments as I don’t understand why any genuine trans person would even want a thread about safeguarding on the s&g board. This thread is about safeguarding. As was the thread about the spa.

To be honest, I switched off a bit when people started to drag prisons and school into it. And the posts went on and on.

But I really don’t understand why anyone would try to move all threads about perverts to some transgender section. I actually think that really is transphobic.

Transwomen are women who just are trying to keep a low profile and get on with their lives. This appears to have been a pervert who wanted to shove his penis as close as possible to a little girl (about 9) who was naked. I hope he goes to jail.

Can anyone explain to me why we cannot discuss perverts and flashers in AIBU?

Thank you. Yes, exactly. I am shocked at the number of people, who do not wish to engage with the actual issue. One person even said I’d get banned for creating this thread and stating I wanted it to remain in AIBU. Sorry but I don’t get that all.

It's because they know they are defending the indefensible so their only option is to shut it down.

@Helleofabore

Assaulting children and indecent exposure are illegal. Trans people don't have a pass.

I'm not familiar with the details of what you're describing, just as you are not familiar with the details of thousands of sexual assaults that are committed by cis men every day but apparently aren't as critical or interesting to the GC crowd, who would rather zoom in their focus on the small minority of sexual assaults that can be attributed to a minority group and extrapolate to conclude, baselessly, that all trans people are a particular risk.

I'm sure you will find that trans people are just as horrified by sexual assault as any other member of the public.

Anyway, this is exactly why I don't think this topic belongs on AIBU. The nonsensical arguments draw in people who would correct them, and a pointless circular debate ensues.

I'm out. Please respect the topics and keep this discourse where it belongs. We all know where to find you.

Assaulting children and indecent exposure are illegal. Trans people don't have a pass.

But men can get a free pass to do exactly that by claiming they are transgender which no one can verify and we just have to take their word for it. And as you yourself said, there are a lot of men out there who can't seem to behave themselves. Why give them a free pass to go into womens facilities? And it is a free pass because as soon as the word transwoman is mentioned everything is fine and women who object are bigots.

Even now, in a discussion about someone who got their penis out in a room with girls, that is hushed up because it is anti trans to discuss. I mean AiBU to be fedup with mens rights activists using transpeople as props to harrass women and get away with it?

I'm out. Please respect the topics and keep this discourse where it belongs. We all know where to find you.

It's you that made it all about trans people. Stop doing that and either respect the topic being discussed, or take it to the sex and gender board. This is about predatory males. No matter how they identify.

It's you that made it all about trans people
Oh, as if.