AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

[PanamaPattie]

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

@888central

You're assuming a male nurse will be pervy. That's sexist in itself.

Are you 12?

It's not assuming a male nurse will be 'pervy' but if you cba to read the thread and peoples reasons for wanting female HCP's I'm not going to waste my time typing it out again now.

@PanamaPattie

She is entitled to ask for a female nurse.

But did she think about asking for a female doctor too ?

If she'd wanted to ask for female staff, then I fully support her views and would encourage her to voice them so that she felt comfortable with who was providing her care.

But if it was only a female nurse she was offended by and didn't worry it was a male doctor treating her, then I'd be inclined to think she's actually sexist

[quote updownroundandround]@PanamaPattie

She is entitled to ask for a female nurse.

But did she think about asking for a female doctor too ?

If she'd wanted to ask for female staff, then I fully support her views and would encourage her to voice them so that she felt comfortable with who was providing her care.

But if it was only a female nurse she was offended by and didn't worry it was a male doctor treating her, then I'd be inclined to think she's actually sexist [/quote]
I doubt very much a doctor has time to help patients shower, whether they are a male or female.

Of course it’s not sexist to ask for a female to help you shower but be happy with a male doctor! I’d be massively uncomfortable having a male nurse help me shower, and I’m not sexist.
The NHS are being disingenuous if they don’t recognise that many women will be uncomfortable with a male nurse due to past sexual trauma.
I had a male midwife during one of my labours, and he asked me if I minded before he did anything to me. This should always be the case.

@Carbonated12

"could be considered a situation where it was reasonable to suggest being a woman was a GOQ."

Would you apply the same principle to firefighters and police officers and being men?

Why would it be?

[quote updownroundandround]@PanamaPattie

She is entitled to ask for a female nurse.

But did she think about asking for a female doctor too ?

If she'd wanted to ask for female staff, then I fully support her views and would encourage her to voice them so that she felt comfortable with who was providing her care.

But if it was only a female nurse she was offended by and didn't worry it was a male doctor treating her, then I'd be inclined to think she's actually sexist [/quote]
A doctor wouldn't be giving her a shower. It's not sexist either to feel uncomfortable with someone doing what feels like an intimate procedure to some patients.

@berryhead2013

When I was doing my training my grandad who was an inpatient at the time was horrified that I would be cleaning men I explained it's just the job and male or female the nurses don't care if you are male or female they are there to care regardless But if your aunt was uncomfortable she would have been well within her rights to ask fir a female or a chaperone hope she recovers quick op x

We often hear "oh the nurse won't mind, they've seen it all before"

But it's about how the patient feels, not the carer

I have no issue with men working on the ward as long as it’s explicitly clear that the women can have a female HCP if they want one. I’m sorry your aunt was upset 💐

I am very grateful to the male nurse who, whenever needing to do something intimate, automatically went to fetch a female colleague, either to chaperone or to take over, without me having to ask.

I am usually quite a forward person, and am not afraid to ask for female staff for, for example, smear tests. But being whisked into hospital and very unwell, left me feeling extremely vulnerable. I suddenly turned into a mute who just quietly went along with whatever was being done to me!

My nurse was the kind of man who should be in the profession, but I think most women would be thinking about the kind of men who absolutely would be attracted to the profession for nefarious reasons. We have good reason to be wary.

@IHaveBrilloHair

I wouldn't be happy at all. Any sort of treatment where I'm unclothed I want a female.

Wouldn't be happy that a gynae ward has a male nurse?

You need to voice your preferences and perhaps advocate for your aunt, not be upset that there is a male nurse. I'd be pretty pissed if I went for a job interview in say urology, where they do lots of prostatectomies, and they turned me away for being female.

I gave birth recently and my birth plan stated unless in an emergency situation I only wanted female HCPs.

But did she think about asking for a female doctor too ?

The OP said her doctor was female. And all the HCPs that she had seen pre-op were female.

Saying a person shouldn't be working in a particular place because of their gender is literal sexism.

Sex not gender.

Literal sexism is insisting sex doesn't matter and that women live in an equal society and that the sensitivities of male staff are more important than the vulnerable patients they are supposed to be caring for.

There is no such thing as sexism against men. Sexism is a form of oppression experienced by women as a group due to patriarchal systems and beliefs and the resulting experiences and discrimination they face because they are women.

A man having his feelings hurt because of a remark which relates to his sex isn’t comparable and isn’t sexism.

Men are not being raped and murdered by women in their thousands. Men do not lose their jobs when they start a family. Men are not being publicly bullied and sexually harassed by women (this in particular usually starts in childhood for many women) There is no global issue of female oppression of or violence against men.

Men are not being oppressed or damaged by women and men are not experiencing sexism.

Saying a person shouldn't be working in a particular place because of their gender is literal sexism.

Women have a right to be wary of men, especially when they are vulnerable and the man is unknown and in a position of authority over them.

Never seen a patient die because a female nurse brutally raped them.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/stroke-patient-death-sexual-assault-b1845691.html%3famp

Do you feel the same way about the doctors op? They also should only be female? If your aunt only wishes female medical support then support her to request this, but no it is not reasonable to say only women can work in gynae,

The Equality Act allows for single sex spaces and events in specific circumstances where there is a specific need. That isn’t sexism. Equality is not about treating everyone the same.

An employer can recruit for a person with a protected characteristic if either the protected characteristic is essential for and relates to the main tasks of the job or the employer can prove it has a good business reason ('objective justification')

Examples might include:
A refuge for women who've experienced domestic violence advertises for a female support worker, as the residents would feel safer if the worker is female
An Anglican church advertises for a priest who's Anglican
A television company advertises for an actor who's black and male to play a specific role.

I rather suspect a gynaecology ward nursing role might be justified as requiring a female, as the patients are likely to feel safer and more comfortable with women providing intimate care. I’m always surprised how many men work in TOP clinics. That also feels like a space where women might feel safer with women staff.

@Bluntness100

Do you feel the same way about the doctors op? They also should only be female? If your aunt only wishes female medical support then support her to request this, but no it is not reasonable to say only women can work in gynae,

Do you genuinely see no difference between a male doctor doing non-intimate care, and a male doctor peering between your legs?!

Even in cases where I routinely see a male GP - when it switched to the intimate, guess what? He asks me I want to call either the nurse to come in, or even once I recall the nurse wasn't in the surgery and he asked if I wanted the receptionist to stand just within the doorway. I never cared. But I can see how someone else might.

And yes I'm all for female only birthing centres, female only gynae wards and female only hospitals.

On Mumsnet we get awful stories of birthing and prenatal care, mine was awful. My sisters was terrible. And from my own health journey I can tell you misogyny is rife in the health service. Women are prescribed antidepressants even when they don't request them at a rate higher than men with the same symptoms.

Women overwhelming receive a 'medically unexplained symptoms' diagnosis - Those with ME or Fibromyalgia or persistent fatigue (or thyroid disease for that matter another scandal) know the uphill struggle to even get taken seriously by the medical profession, yet these conditions overwhelming affect women. You are far more likely to be told it is all in your head and given ADs and told to be happy ill. Effectively women are still being treated for hysteria, rebranded for PC reasons as depression or my favourite 'low mood' and end up having to fight to be heard.

I know women who take their husbands to consultant appointments because they feel their concerns will be dismissed otherwise.

So yes it's high time the NHS focused on women. Bring it on.

LemonRoses post on the equality act is true and really important here actually.

I still am wondering why a man would want to choose to work in an area where he knows his presence may cause distress to a sizeable number of his patients.

And from my own health journey I can tell you misogyny is rife in the health service.

This! Agree completely @DysonSphere

You don't even need to look beyond maternity care (although it exists within every area of healthcare) to see how misogynistic the health service is. What's awful is how ingrained it is that I don't think the female HCP's are that great at times.

Misogyny is rife, full stop.
Ergo, it's going to be rife in most places, and the NHS is far from immune.

Science and Medicine have been the domain of men for centuries and old attitudes die hard.

@VerticalHorizon

Misogyny is rife, full stop. Ergo, it's going to be rife in most places, and the NHS is far from immune.

Science and Medicine have been the domain of men for centuries and old attitudes die hard.

Well quite. Hence why I spend most of my time on MN on FWR.

One area of medicine that was never the domain of men was midwifery. And they can't even leave that for women.

One area of medicine that was never the domain of men was midwifery. And they can't even leave that for women.

This with bells on!! They managed to ostracise all the local 'wise women' and take over. As you say even female HCPs can have a boorish dismissive attitude because their entire training has been within a culture that caters to the male brain. I find medical study (and other scientific domains) to be saturated with male ego. It may be a means of motivation for men, but it doesn't benefit women.

I think women based healthcare would look entirely different, it's what's missing.

On a whole in education, the workplace, and health it's time that rather than trying to slot into male created domains, and try and carve it up to make it work, women built those domains from the ground up to support how we thrive. It would be a different thing. Something we've not seen before.

Maybe one day.

Yes I keep meaning to read 'Invisible women'. I wonder whether some of the vitamin/mineral RDAs are based on men's requirements. When you get your blood test results are the normal ranges based on your sex or are they the same for men and women? We know that women and girls require higher levels of iron because of periods so surely the threshold for deficiency in women should be higher?

Hit send too soon!

When you consider the original question of the the thread- whether it's unreasonable to expect to have female only nurses on a gynae ward- I think it's interesting to think about the question in isolation and disregard things like current NHS staffing and funding.

I think that it would be completely reasonable for women to expect to have female only HCPs for all intimate medical care and procedures. Given that we are vulnerable to men- there is a reasonable fear of physical or sexual assault. There are legitimate reasons why men are prevented from working in women's shelters etc- and I think this should be the same for women's intimate medical care. I don't care how difficult that is in practice- it's what should happen.