AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

[PanamaPattie]

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

A lack of refusal is not the same as consent.

WeatherSystems That would depend on whether she did actually give informed consent and whether the member of staff had followed trust policy re chaperones. The onus is on the staff, not the patient.

Because she's elderly I'm not shocked and she's not BU. However you are a little bit as surely you're more used to the fact that male nurses exist and without them we wouldn't have enough! Shame she didn't have the courage to ask for a female but it's no ones fault. You step up and speak for her now

If someone says 'I'm here to give you a wash/remove your catheter, is that okay?' and the patient nods or says 'yes', then that's consent. If they don't agree or decline, then of course consent isn't obtained and it needs to be explored further before care can take place. Not sure anyone would disagree with that.

@WeatherSystems

If someone says 'I'm here to give you a wash/remove your catheter, is that okay?' and the patient nods or says 'yes', then that's consent. If they don't agree or decline, then of course consent isn't obtained and it needs to be explored further before care can take place. Not sure anyone would disagree with that.

They shouldn’t be in a position where they have to refuse on the spot to the male them self. Many vulnerable women won’t feel confident to do that despite it being a deeply traumatic experience. It’s basically saying “I don’t trust you” to the male staff member. It’s a very confrontational situation. They should be asked, when they arrive, if they are comfortable with having male attendant perform intimate care. Not have to voice that to the male attendant when they have turned up all ready to do it.

Patients have a right to ask for carers of a specific gender, and where possible this will be accommodated, but it is not always possible.

For example, a patient and partner asked for an all female team in the theatre during a caesarean. This was not possible due to availability of staff.

Sometimes all doctors on call for a certain speciality will be male or female.

With current staffing shortages, hospitals are struggling to fill vacant shifts, and insisting on nurses of a specific gender is not possible.

Recruitment and retention need to be improved, with funded courses, and better pay and working conditions. This would improve patient care too, and facilitate more patient preferences.

And the fact that the male hcp is probably not going to do anything bad doesn’t mean that it’s guaranteed that he couldn’t.

Any hcp could but most probably won't.

Nothing is guaranteed, but training, checking and years of employment must count, don't they? Are all men to be mistrusted because of what some men do? How sexist is that!

In the days when I had cervical smears I always preferred a male nurse/doctor to do them - because I am heterosexual and it seemed weird having a woman touching me down there. Friends think I’m weird!

YABU to say there should only be female nurses there, but plenty of other people replying a BU as well.

Being in hospital and having major surgery can be frightening and it can be difficult to say no to staff. Asking on admission is probably the best way round this.

I'm astonished at the amount of people who think it's unreasonable to prefer to have a woman HCP. This isn't just an age thing, for trauma related reasons I would choose a woman over a man for anything intimate/gynae related. And yes, I have seen a man when necessary, but it causes intense anxiety and distress that I force myself through for the sake of my physical health at the expense of my mental health. the less I have to do that the better.

As for the staff understanding, I've read a couple pieces by male midwives where they've complained about some woman being sexist and refusing care from them. No empathy or thought as to why those women may have made that choice...

Are all men to be mistrusted because of what some men do? How sexist is that!

over 90% of violent acts against women are by men. Its nearly 100% of sexual violence. Girls are harassed and assaulted in schools, women in the workplace and routinely blamed and disbelieved when assaulted. Rape is a punishment free crime in this count ("why was she there", "why the short skirt", "well girls like that lie" etc etc).

Male predators seek out and work their way into jobs and roles where their victims are available.

But yes lets just completely ignore the real world and focus on the thing that really matters - the sensitivities of men.

Honestly it bothers me that so many men are gynaecologists anyway. In my trust all the senior gynaes are men. I refuse to see them now and ask for a woman but i always get someone less senior as a result. Noones ever minded me asking though, ive always been made to feel as if its a totally understandable reasonable request when ive asked female staff to give me female consultants. The only time ive ever been made to feel shit about it was when i was 17 and needing an abortion and when i asked to be examined by a woman, the man said that it wasnt as if a man had never seen down there clearly. I ended up being examined by him. For years after that I didnt make any fuss even if I left feeling shit. Nowadays I ask for a woman. Men are overrepresented in so much of medicine. At least let us have bloody gynae and midwifery. It shouldnt even have to be said IMO. Most women who would be OK with a man doing it would also be OK with a woman doing it and dont have a specific preference for a male gynae. They just put up with it

Absolutely. I think in most areas you'd struggle to get a male gynae even if that was your preference.

After reading Adam Kay's book and seeing just how Obs/gynae is viewed by health professionals (referred to as 'brats and twats' at medical school ) and finding out what doctors really think of elderly women's genitals I'd also be reluctant to have a male gynae.

How sad that the NHS is in such a shit state that we are just expected to accept this.

This happened to my 92 year old aunt. After being brought in by ambulance and later being transferred to a ward, two males changed her.
It was distressing for her.
Who makes these stupid decisions.
Some young one in an office?

YABU. It's reasonable to prefer a female nurse and even to request one, but not at all reasonable to be upset if it isn't possible ... especially if you don't ask. Male patients often prefer male nurses, and they can't always be accommodated, either.

My mum had a massive stroke last year and got very distressed when a male HCP had to give her a bed bath in the rehab centre. She was able to request female only staff after this so no problems however we did discuss this with some of the HCP's during the course of her stay and they said they often get females requesting female only care - they never get males requesting male only care. It provoked quite an interesting discussion point - they were a lovely lot in the stroke rehab centre

A male nurse shouldn't cause her any distress. A nurse is a nurse. Baffled by anyone saying anything different.
YABU to expect only female nurses on her ward.
I'm sure if someone requested a female nurse for her, it could be arranged, but by the sounds of it, the poor male nurse hadn't done anything wrong except having the wrong body parts? I'm sure he is capable and qualified!

@hibbledibble

Patients have a right to ask for carers of a specific gender, and where possible this will be accommodated, but it is not always possible.

For example, a patient and partner asked for an all female team in the theatre during a caesarean. This was not possible due to availability of staff.

Sometimes all doctors on call for a certain speciality will be male or female.

With current staffing shortages, hospitals are struggling to fill vacant shifts, and insisting on nurses of a specific gender is not possible.

Recruitment and retention need to be improved, with funded courses, and better pay and working conditions. This would improve patient care too, and facilitate more patient preferences.

I think people don't always realise that 'you have the right to ask for a specific gender/sex clinician' doesn't translate to 'you have the right to receive a specific gender/sex clinician'.

Unfortunately the way hospital staffing works means that it isn't always possible to meet a patient's request in this way.

When I gave birth they were very understaffed (to the extent that they 'paused' my induction process three days on the trot until there were enough staff to be able to deliver my baby on the delivery ward), and when the midwife who initially cared for us on the delivery ward went home, our next midwife was a man.

Would I have been able to say 'I don't want a male midwife, please find me a female'? Sure, I have the right to do that. But the hospital can't magic one up if there isn't one available. In situations like that you have to choose between receiving medical care from someone who isn't who you'd prefer, or declining medical care. I could have said I didn't want him as our midwife but that wouldn't have meant I had a right to a woman if one wasn't available.

If it's important to you to receive care from a specific sex or gender clinician then the onus is on you to let the hospital know. If I had a preference for a woman I could have had that put on my clinical notes and when they were assigning midwives it'd be taken into consideration and provided if possible. But if a patient doesn't stipulate either way, the hospital can't read minds.

@LadyEloise

This happened to my 92 year old aunt. After being brought in by ambulance and later being transferred to a ward, two males changed her. It was distressing for her. Who makes these stupid decisions. Some young one in an office?

Probably the two nurses who realised that your aunt needed changing, so provided that care, despite their genitals getting in the way of their nursing qualifications

@blobby10

My mum had a massive stroke last year and got very distressed when a male HCP had to give her a bed bath in the rehab centre. She was able to request female only staff after this so no problems however we did discuss this with some of the HCP's during the course of her stay and they said they often get females requesting female only care - they never get males requesting male only care. It provoked quite an interesting discussion point - they were a lovely lot in the stroke rehab centre

Interesting. DH is a doctor and often gets male patients who request to only see a man for intimate problems. He would always want to do everything practically possible to meet that request as if a patient isn't comfortable then that's a problem for all kinds of reasons, and certainly doesn't think patients who request a specific clinician are being judgmental or bigoted, there are all kinds of deep seated reasons why somebody might not feel comfortable with a man or woman seeing them in such a vulnerable or intimate state (as well as people with preferences, which are just as valid).

Having said that there are times when there isn't a specific sex clinician available and so it is a case of access the medical care or decline it.

@Cookies47

A male nurse shouldn't cause her any distress. A nurse is a nurse. Baffled by anyone saying anything different. YABU to expect only female nurses on her ward. I'm sure if someone requested a female nurse for her, it could be arranged, but by the sounds of it, the poor male nurse hadn't done anything wrong except having the wrong body parts? I'm sure he is capable and qualified!

How have you decided what is an appropriate response?

That's so callous.

People have all sorts of reasons for requesting same sex care - religious reasons, trauma reasons, etc. Just because you don't share their feelings doesn't mean it's not an issue for other people.

Luckily this is well recognised and not dismissed out of hand. HCPs will be well used to the issues involved.

Probably the two nurses who realised that your aunt needed changing, so provided that care, despite their genitals getting in the way of their nursing qualifications

You think a male’s professional qualifications come before a female’s right to dignity and body autonomy?

@Nocaloriesinchocolate

In the days when I had cervical smears I always preferred a male nurse/doctor to do them - because I am heterosexual and it seemed weird having a woman touching me down there. Friends think I’m weird!

What kind of weird shit is this. Cervical smears aren't some kind of sexual fondling

Those male nurses you preferred would feel very uncomfortable (hopefully) at your reasoning.

I see the lack of empathy and 'I'm alright with it, so should you be' has continued.

The responses on this thread are horrific. Dignity is one of the main aims of patient care and many women would feel deeply uncomfortable having a man provide intimate care without a chaperone. The onus should absolutely be on the hospital to ask people if they are ok with care from the opposite sex. Vulnerable people (whether ill or old or both) should not have to find the confidence to speak up.

Those asking about male doctors - yes, in an ideal world patients would get a choice of the sex of doctor. Ultimately if there aren’t enough female doctors then most would choose to see a male doctor than remain ill, but in this situation they are always offered a chaperone if getting undressed, so completely different to being showered alone by a male nurse.

I just think everyone would be quick to complain if no care had been provided. I've been in a hospital ward before where NO staff came when I needed someone - male or female.

To those saying that the sex of the nurse shouldn't matter and a nurse is a nurse: Would you be comfortable if you had a teenage daughter in a situation where she needed intimate care in hospital, and a male nurse showered and changed her?

Or is only older women who need to shut up and get with the program?