To be saddened but unsurprised by Britney Spears' testimony?

[plodalong12]

Listening to this and hearing Britney talk about the control of her father reminded me of watching the documentary Amy and I feel the same sort of Mitch Winehouse/Amy Winehouse vibe and we all know how that ended.

Someone is either too mentally ill to be in control of their own life or they are deemed well enough to be a judge on The X Factor, do a four-year Vegas live show followed immediately by a world tour. It can't be both.

"I haven't done anything in the world to deserve this treatment. It's not okay to force me to do anything I don't want to do"

@Awalkintime - but how Britney is being treated would not be justified by being diagnosed with bipolar or EUPD.

The point of correct diagnosis is to get correct treatment. Many women are relieved to finally get their diagnosis so they can begin proper treatment. I am one of those.

@Awalkintime

I think psychiatry is abusive and that all the labels - bipolar, PBD is all crap and they're all labels for women who have suffered trauma. They're doped up and the trauma never dealt with.

There is a new book by Dr Jessica Taylor called Sexy by Psycho which is all about how psychiatrists label women as mentally unwell when they are not.

This

@romdowa I agree with you 100 percent! That was my first thought too

SummerBreeze1980

Exactly, so when many are being pathologised when they don't have anything wrong with them, they have suffered trauma so a diagnosis for most women means they will be medicated unnecessarily and getting the wrong treatment that they don't need.

If the situation is still unclear then any control should be taken off of her father and given to a truly independent advocate

In some cases, it is warranted. However, I do think that in those cases, they should be reviewed by an independent board to ascertain if continuing the "guardianship" is appropriate. There are cases, such as advanced dementias and traumatic brain injuries, where a lifetime of conservatorship will be necessary. But those are exceptions.

What really got to me is that, because "Daddy" controls ALL of the money, Britney is paying for those lawyers arguing against her in court!

Awalkintime, it wouldn’t surprise me at all, I know someone who looking back has always had issues with strange behaviours, she was diagnosed bipolar in her 50’s. She had been horrifically sexually abused when younger, her mother exhibited similar behaviour (but never diagnosed) and she had been abused and beaten regularly by her first husband. There is obviously mental scarring from serious trauma and it is made worse because people never really get help, now people will hassle for counselling (not that they always get it) but years ago it was sort of brushed off like... oh, it’s over now, let’s move on and forget about it..... which obviously does not help the person who is traumatised

@ATieLikeRichardGere thank you for the links I will read when I get the chance. I do think that you would find it interesting to look at what the psychiatrists and neuroscientists are saying about trauma.

It isn't so much that BPD is now PTSDc it is more (as I understand it) that back at the time BPD was first created as a diagnosis, ie decades ago, pychiatrists were not aware of what they are aware of now as a result of advances in neuroscience - where they can see key changes in the brain.

The key think is nothing to do with destigmatising mental illness, it is to do with recovery - the thinking was that you could not recover from BPD, whereas there is remarkable therapeutic work for trauma, which works. The therapeutic work for trauma depends on which part of the brain is affected, eg brainstem, limbic etc, recovery has to be from bottom up.

As to whether personality disorders are inherited or genetic or to do with genetic memory is interesting and again it is worth reading into it, because recent thinking is research is indicating that things which were formerly thought to be innate such as certain aspects of personality, are not innate - and there are things that can be done to change the brain's integration and functioning, and to change this inherited. Not all things - yet...

YANBU - many fathers are controlling and abusive - often to daughters, we know this - I believe her, always - and I agree that All the men in Amy Winehouse 's life bullied, abused and controlled her - none of this shpukd surprise anyone when the whole music industry, owned and controlled by men views women as weak cash cows to be manipulated and ripped off

@Pedalpushers

For those saying we don't have access to her medical records - her conservators have previously filed claims that she has dementia. Does she look or sound like a woman 13 years into early onset dementia, and if that's the case then why would she be treated with lithium, which is not for dementia? They have also petitioned the court in available transcripts to continue the conservatorship based on the justification of it being a 'successful hybrid business model' - no mention of Britney's health or welfare whatsoever. One of the justifications used was that Britney is incapable of managing her fortune, and yet she's supposedly only worth 50 million dollars despite having earned an estimated 500 million in her career. Where has her money gone? Lastly, if Britney's medical records genuinely say that she is so ill that she needs to be completely totally controlled in all aspects of her life, what the hell have they been doing subjecting her to the stress of being a global popstar for 13 years instead of letting her retire in peace?

Here here! I totally agree with this. It’s all very suspect. Surely If she was as ill as they say I’m pretty sure she’d struggle to perform, it’s funny how she isn’t ever ill on stage or unfit to perform. Her illness must have days off when she is being a star, a bit like corona virus is so clever it has set times that it lingers about apparently. (Pubs must close at 10pm to stop the spread…. Blah blah blah!) More lies to control people into how they want you to behave. It is a very sad world we live in knowing this happens, amongst other terrible evils.

If Britney was not a cash cow for the parasites that surround her, I very much doubt there would be any conservatorship in place.

I don't believe this arrangement is for the good of her health but its certainly financially benefiting her father, his lawyers and god knows how many ' physicians to the stars'.

She was used, sexualised and monetized from her teenage years and they're not done with her yet.

Shocked at how many people think Amy’s dad was doing what he did out of love 🤦🏼‍♀️ Either you don’t realise what he was like or have forgotten, if he had the chance to do what Britney’s dad did then it would have happened.
Mitch was and still is a money grabbing selfish man. When she tried to get away from things and get clean, he was making Amy take pics with fans and she was distraught.

Diagnosed with Bipolar, MPD and I have never been abused as a child. I was in a DV relationship for 23 years lost rights to my children so I couldn’t leave . Put on every pill known to man and I was classed as bloody nuts . 4 years later own home regular contact with kids a lovely relationship and I have no mental health issues . Miss diagnosis by a mental health team all those years of pain suffering on the words of one man. Do I believe there is nothing wrong with her 100% no single person should have control over anyone .

If anybody is interested, there is a Netflix series called Dirty Money - you will be shocked and disgusted with what goes on in the name of guardianship/conservatorship. Especially how it begins to totally normal and healthy people.

**I think psychiatry is abusive and that all the labels - bipolar, PBD is all crap and they're all labels or women who have suffered trauma. They're doped up and the trauma never dealt with.

There is a new book by Dr Jessica Taylor called Sexy by Psycho which is all about how psychiatrists label women as mentally unwell when they are not.*

That's just the thing though. Many of these stem from trauma. The 'labels' as you call them are only there to categorise how this trauma is presented and what the symptoms are. Are they positive or negative? Are they manic or depressed? Do they have psychotic episodes, etc. This information is then used to develop a suitable treatment plan.

You can't say 'names of infections are just labels to describe people exposed to germs'. You need to know symptoms to determine the right type to get the right treatment. You would use antibiotics for a bacterial infection for example, but not a viral one.

If they're 'doped up' as you put it, then there is a concern either for their safety, the safety of others or their quality of life. It's meant to keep them safe until the root cause of their trauma can be addressed.

Now I'm not going to say that there aren't crap psychiatrists out there who misdiagnose. It appears they bribed the one who treated Britney and he should be investigated and have his licence revoked. But generally speaking, they train for almost 10 years so most of them do know their stuff. They've been to medical school and then some.

But calling it all a load of tosh when some of these disorders are physically visible via brain scans and backed up by tons of research is incorrect in my opinion, and quite harmful to the current discussion around mental health.

Exactly.
There was also one of her close friends who lived with her when she was first starting out who said that they were all called to a hotel to do an intervention on Amy when her drug problem was spiralling and suddenly the paparazzi turned up. Her friend said Mitch had called them he did very well out of his daughter's fame, in the hours after she died was giving away dresses and trinkets from her flat to fans gathering outside and in the immediate months after her death turned up at some awards ceremony wearing a suit with her photos on the back and front of it so people knew who he was.

T.his is what happens when your child has become a commodity

[quote quicknclean]@ATieLikeRichardGere some mental illnesses have a genetic element such as schitzophrenia but with recent neurological research and commentary it is looking more and more likely that many mental health illnesses which were formerly seen as only controllable by life long meds in fact could have been caused by trauma to the brain, and with the right help are recoverable from, without meds. Professor Kolk was one of the psychiatrists who formed the diagnosis borderline personality disorder many decades ago, and in recent years he has been reviewing his earlier work and researching how trauma could be the root cause of BPD in many/all cases... totally changing the outlook for BPD patients. I think in the coming years links will be made with many disorders and how if treated differently there would be different outcomes.

I watched a Yale lecture back in 2013 by Kolk which explained his thinking about this which you may be able to find on youtube. Other leading psychiatrists and neuroscientists provide similar analysis and commentary. Giving credence to this is the well understood day to day links between "feelings" and how the brain operates- both how well the thinking part of the brain operates ("stress makes you act stupid" ) and how high levels of cortisol can throw other hormones out of whack, and the affect of all this on how well the brain communicates with itself/functions. And there is growing evidence about how specific therapeutic work can calm the nervous system and have a hugely positive affect on the functioning of the brain,. Dan Siegel is a psychiatrist who has communciated really well to help families over the years, and he talks a lot about how the brain goes "offline", and about how there is a lot of research about how and why this happens and what can be done to reverse symptoms.

You mention a strep infection - it is possible that this caused trauma to your brain - ie using "trauma" in the psych sense rather than in the common parlance sense.

@Awalkintime Dorothy Rowe has always had interesting things to say about depression - I remember reading one of her books years ago about how if you reframe how you see life and your received narratives about things like "shoulds" and learn to tolerate uncertainties and understand and live within your limits you are unlikely to get depressed - that good MH health is often not an accident, it is a learned ability. I would have to say that since reading that I have suffered not a single day with depression- but at the same time I wouldn't minimise the impact of depression for some people

I think that MH meds might form a significant part of the economy in the US and this is likely to be relevant. Insurance and how "ACE"s are considered might also be relevant.

Changes as a result of all the research really could make a huge difference to how we see MH in the future and help people in a different way.[/quote]
I find this frustrating to read that someone would think depression is caused by the "wrong mindset" about life.

I have seasonal affective disorder which is depression. If I don't get enough light, I get depressed. It has nothing to do with my mindset, which I try to keep as positive as possible however it begins to go downhill very fast if I don't do my light therapy.

Not everyone who is depressed can control or influence their depression through positive thinking.

AzraiL
The issue is that trauma is presented as something being mentally wrong with someone but trauma is a natural response to a situation that is abnormal.

When an animals reacts to something that scares them or would likely kill them we don't say they are mentally ill, say if they run from a predator, they are not mentally ill for panicking and running and hiding, wanting to escape even if they jumped into the path of a car or off a cliff in panic. We say it is a normal reaction.

When humans do this, we say it is them that is ill for reacting this way.

@snowflake29f

Diagnosed with Bipolar, MPD and I have never been abused as a child. I was in a DV relationship for 23 years lost rights to my children so I couldn’t leave . Put on every pill known to man and I was classed as bloody nuts . 4 years later own home regular contact with kids a lovely relationship and I have no mental health issues . Miss diagnosis by a mental health team all those years of pain suffering on the words of one man. Do I believe there is nothing wrong with her 100% no single person should have control over anyone .

I’m so glad that you are finally happy, I hope that Britney ends up with this happy ending ❤️

There are definitely a lot of flaws in all of these services.

*The issue is that trauma is presented as something being mentally wrong with someone but trauma is a natural response to a situation that is abnormal.

When an animals reacts to something that scares them or would likely kill them we don't say they are mentally ill, say if they run from a predator, they are not mentally ill for panicking and running and hiding, wanting to escape even if they jumped into the path of a car or off a cliff in panic. We say it is a normal reaction.

When humans do this, we say it is them that is ill for reacting this way.*

That's not what you said in your initial post. But to address this one, an extreme trauma response needs to be addressed. No exceptions. Whilst the fact that symptoms can be a reaction to trauma is not disputed, a person is suffering to the extent that they pose a danger to themselves or others, or completely lack any quality of life or ability to function. Like any physical illness, it is an illness in the sense that they have symptoms (physical, mental and emotional) and are suffering and need help to regain their health and their life. Remember that this trauma can change the physical structure of your brain, and can effect your hormones. Those structural differences can already be present if it's hereditary. So you can't not call it an illness. Therefore, what we need is to be able to view a mental illness the same way we do a physical one - without the stigma and with a little more compassion and humanity.

I did say it elsewhere. Do you mean the chemical imbalance theory?

I disagree that those responses are an illness.

I don’t know much about the Amy Winehouse situation with her Dad but I always got the impression he was riding her coattails and had no desire for her to get clean.

With Britney I’ve been following the story for the last 6 months. Someone upthread said it wasn’t for the fans to get involved with her situation as they don’t know the facts (or something like that). If it wasn’t for the fans then we wouldn’t be talking about this and Britney would not have had her 20 mins in court. The fans have worked tirelessly to bring her situation to the public eye and deserve every credit for all they have done.

Granted none of us know the full extent to what has happened to her, what we do know is that she was thrust in front of the cameras from a very young age, she grew up in the public eye with every little thing being open for all to see. Her virginity was constantly a topic of discussion for every perve and his mates to discuss. She was accused of cheating on clean cut JT who announced to the world he slept with her and was cheered. She was vilified for her alleged infidelity. She was hounded every where she went, her image and weight scrutinised constantly. Imagine being a teenage girl already self conscious having every detail of your body under scrutiny by the world. Not only was she hounded by the paparazzi she was singled out and crucified by them, many still don’t see what they did as wrong, luckily some do and have come forward to apologise.

She then had 2 highly publicised marriages, one I think to an old school friend that lasted a matter of hours and another to one of her back up singers. She then had 2 babies in quick succession, divorced and lost custody of those children while being mocked in the press. I for one don’t blame her for what she did with her hair, shit loads of people shave their heads, I’m guessing that she did it as it was the one and only thing in her life she had control over at that moment in time. Then smashing the paparazzi car with the umbrella. At the time she had been trying to see her children but her ex was refusing to let her see them, I would have don’t a lot more damage than she did in her situation. If you watch the video of it happening you can here her cousin begging the paparazzi to leave her alone.

She’s then placed on a phsyc hold, probably the right move at the time. What happened next is the issue. Her father having the conserver-ship put in place. A man who has allegedly been abusive to the family and who only seem to care about how rich his little girl was going to make him being put in charge of everything. There has been very little said about where her mother is in all this but I believe she’s living a very comfortable life in a house Britney bout her. He brother has condemned the fans saying it’s complicated and they don’t know what they are talking about. Her sister has also tried to take control of the conserver-ship.

She even had her custody agreement to see her children changed because her father attacked one of her sons. But because he has full control of her life can’t do anything about it. I also think that Kevin should have stood up for her. Yes he is her ex but they have 2 children together, if not for her then he should stand up for his children’s mother.

At no point in the 13 years as anyone close to her or the courts said eerrmmm ok, if she’s so incapable of making her own decisions how is it she’s released hit albums, done world tours, judged music shows and maintained a LV tenancy. Why would they when they are all making money off her. Only her fans have stood up and said something is not right, surely that’s exploitation, she’s been pimped out as someone else unthread said.

My understanding is that she tried to have her own lawyer appointed but the courts refused and gave her a court appointed lawyer. Maybe if she was able to have her own then they would have thought for her more. Also the joint conserver was a friend of her dads, both milking her for everything they could.

I’ve never believed that the Instagrams she’s posted are truly her. I fully believe given how much her life has been controlled that they are posted by her guards and she’s made to come across as crazy, which given the fact she has told the court she’s been forced to have a iud, given drugs when she dosnt comply and not even allowed to travel in her boyfriends car alone, it’s not that hard to believe that the videos are also being controlled.

I’m also unsure of the boyfriend. I find it strange that given the amount of control she’s under that she would be allowed to choose her own boyfriend. I may be wrong but something dosnt sit right with him.

One of the things I remember from the 2nd documentary was Peter Falks daughter saying that actually having an independent conserver ship company put in charge could actually be more harmful as there is no incentive for them to get her out of it because of all the money they make from it. That is so scary if it’s true.

I really do hope she gets out of this and agree with her that her dad and others should be in jail. That will probably never happen but I hope she somehow gets justice for what they have done to her.

I remember when Britney Spears had her breakdown and I felt so sorry for her that it was publicised at the time and I haven’t ever really stopped feeling sorry for her . This situation that’s been made to live day in day out for years is slavery , how it can be legal is something I cannot get my head round . I really hope the judge overseeing the court case can save Britney from her ordeal . I actually heard her rehearsing in Blackpool of all places a couple of years back . Such a talent such a shame .