To be saddened but unsurprised by Britney Spears' testimony?

[plodalong12]

Listening to this and hearing Britney talk about the control of her father reminded me of watching the documentary Amy and I feel the same sort of Mitch Winehouse/Amy Winehouse vibe and we all know how that ended.

Someone is either too mentally ill to be in control of their own life or they are deemed well enough to be a judge on The X Factor, do a four-year Vegas live show followed immediately by a world tour. It can't be both.

"I haven't done anything in the world to deserve this treatment. It's not okay to force me to do anything I don't want to do"

*I understand ranting, she must feel so frustrated.

But she';s mixing up little things with huge things, is what sounded like rambling. There's a lack of focus or ability to prioritise. She could be emotionally stuck at 15 yrs old, I guess.*

I actually think she did remarkably well for someone who has never been able to publicly voice her feelings until now. 13 years of what she has been going through, and she must be wondering where it is all going to end.

It's actually a real skill, to be able to write concisely, coherently, to include all the points in the order you want to. And when emotions are coming into it as well, it becomes even harder. If someone isn't naturally skilled in those things they're never going to be able to put something together that is polished and a beautifully written document like a lawyer etc would be able to. Who will she have had to even help her put her essay together? I think I'm the circumstances she did incredibly well.

Her diagnosis according to her father was a form of alzheimer's. I didn't believe it myself on a previous Britney thread, it was true.
He refused any further tests.
Maybe she had postpartum psychosis from the pressure of the media and pregnancies.

The mooted diagnosis was dementia (Alzheimer’s is one type of dementia).

But psychosis and dementia are not the same.

I understand ranting, she must feel so frustrated

But she';s mixing up little things with huge things, is what sounded like rambling. There's a lack of focus or ability to prioritise. She could be emotionally stuck at 15 yrs old, I guess

I am not sure I agree with this, what she said was repetitive and going around the houses a bit, but she said consistently her main aim and goal - end the conservatorship without her having to be assessed, and she said more than once that there is legal precedent for this - she said both those two things consistently and that is a pretty clear message. She said various other things too, some about money, some about personal restrictions, a bit about her feelings, some resentment about her family and the people around her - but her key message was as above.

Quite honestly, if most people were required to spend 10 hours a day in "therapy" at a rehab place for 4 months in public view without any let up, no let down, no "me" time, no day off, they'd really not be in a great mental shape.

She is there right now, with people who are in control of her person and her money, and with whom she feels extremely unhappy and exploited by. How could she be independently and reasonably assessed while in that situation?

@StrongerThanA90sTrend

Re the Amy winehouse comparisons. I don't think Amy's parents had the same level of control of her as Britneys family. But I do think it's part of the same. Amy Winehouse was something special. And she was a cash cow to the record label/management/whatever. That is obvious. Anyone watch the performance of her absolutely off her face and the band just kept on playing? She shouldn't have even made it on to the stage. No one cared. All they cared about was getting their pay at the end of it.

This is where the comparisons are correct.

Britney, also something special (in a different way, though, I think) In a very short space of time, she became probably the most famous person in the world at that time. She made a lot of people a lot of money. She was hounded. She had her heart broken and name dragged (I'm looking at you Justin timberknob) very publicly. She had two children very close together, and still no one left her the fuck alone. She has a bit of a breakdown, and instead of allowing her a bit of space, taking her away from the limelight and looking after, helping her with the custody stuff, they take CONTROL OF HER LIFE.

In both cases, the people who should have helped these talented, powerful and successful women, did not. Amy wasn't quietly taken off to rehab and showered with support and love. She was pushed onto the stage. 'My daddy thinks I'm fine, they tried to make me go to rehab and I said no' I hate that song. Not because it's not a good song, it is. I just hate that people sing it like it's a a banger. Britney released an album the year after she shaved her and she was shackled to the conservatorship.

Doing the right thing for these women wouldn't have made much money though, would it? Keeping them working, and in the public eye, that is what makes the money.

Well, that's my take on it.

I have loved Britney for a long time. She was my most favourite. I had her posters, her albums, dolls, I knew the dance routines. She was always just so sweet and goofy. I saw her live in 2000 for the oops! Tour. And I have never seen anything like it since. She was incredible. I saw her again, in 2009, I think, for the Circus tour. She was looking much better, I was so excited to go. I thought she had gotten better. The show was a amazing. Well, the production of it. The ideas behind it. It was a Show. But it wasn't right. I felt ashamed that I was there. She was NOT better. And I haven't really been able to watch her since. I knew something was wrong. But I just didn't understand it. Why was she doing this? She did not seem like her happy self, I mean I know I don't know her. But I've seen her speak, and dance. I didn't know what to make of it.

I followed her on Instagram years ago. But I had to unfollow because I felt like she was so vulnerable. I thought she was mentally unwell and that someone needed to take the phone away. I didn't want people to make fun of her, I knew they were. So I unfollowed. Then a couple years ago I came across 'free Britney' and then it made sense to me.

Fucking hell. They did a grand job of convincing us she was a bit loopy, didn't they? I'd never heard of the conservatorship to be honest. It was pre smart phone I guess. I didn't read tabloids, I'd just hoped she was chilling with her boys. But nah. She had made loads of albums and was apparently doing a Vegas show!

I realised she was being exploited. I believed the free Britney movement. But I also kinda thought maybe she does need the extra support. I thought she just wanted to get rid of her dad.

But now, after listening to her, I think this whole thing needs to be terminated and all those sneaky exploitative criminals get sued by her and then thrown into jail.

She is going to find it so hard to trust anyone ever again. Who can she trust to not exploit her like every other fucker?

Sorry, so long and rambley. But I just love her and it's been playing on my mind today. I so hope she is free soon. And she can spend her days (and her money) doing whatever the hell she wants. She has brought me so much joy and I just want the same for her. She deserves joy.

So cringe

This is exactly how I feel about the situation,

I’m a huge Britney fan, and it’s so upsetting to realise she has been a literal slave to her father and her management for these years.

As previous posters said, what was her breakdown exactly? A haircut and hitting a car with a brolly in frustration. Clearly she had issues, but she had two kids very close together, was going through a divorce and was under immense pressure, it’s no wonder she snapped.

I think she was a little rambling, but I think she was so terrified of not being able to say everything she wanted to say that it all came out at once.

What I don’t understand is how her dad changed over the years. He was happy for her to marry Jason, and he was happy for Jason to be a co conservator, so why then change to be so controlling after that?

This absolutely horrifies me.
Its as though she is “owned” rather than a real person in her own right.

And in her situation... yes.. I would be fucking ranting!

@quicknclean

I think there is quite long standing recognition that no current medication is effective for BPD, though you can’t blame people for trying anything to help.

It is great progress that BPD is no longer seen as a “bad personality”. Its development is often mediated by early trauma but everyone who experiences early trauma doesn’t develop BPD and many people with BPD are frustrated with the insistence that they’ve experienced trauma. There is quite good evidence for a genetic factor.

For comparison, early trauma is also associated with risk for cardiovascular disease. As useful as that is to know for prevention purposes, by the time you have heart disease, it’s still a real illness and medicine and surgery might be necessary. Feelings can also give you a heart attack.

I’m not sure if this is what you are saying but I think it’s probably a stretch to suggest I could have experienced psychological trauma from strep throat.

@ATieLikeRichardGere

It is great progress that BPD is no longer seen as a “bad personality”. Its development is often mediated by early trauma but everyone who experiences early trauma doesn’t develop BPD and many people with BPD are frustrated with the insistence that they’ve experienced trauma. There is quite good evidence for a genetic factor

I understand what you say, but it isn't what Kolk said in his lecture - he is probably the authority on the subject - it is worth you looking at the research around re-thinking BPD.

I’m not sure if this is what you are saying but I think it’s probably a stretch to suggest I could have experienced psychological trauma from strep throat did you not say that your strep throat had caused OCD? If so I am not sure that it would be such a stretch. I know someone who suffered from trauma from an infection - the trauma was so severe it had caused symptoms similar to severe autism. Because it was recognised that it might be trauma related, they went down a different therapeutic and recovery path, and recovered. It is worth being open minded about this and listening to the experts ie the leading psychiatrists in the field

Feelings can also give you a heart attack

Well yes, yes they can ... I am not sure why this might show that some of the current disorders might in the future be seen differently as a result of what neuroscientists know about trauma.

I think there is quite long standing recognition that no current medication is effective for BPD, though you can’t blame people for trying anything to help most people suffering from diagnosed "BPD" where the link has not been made to trauma are likely to be on medication of one sort or another, is the point here.

I think you might be mixing up how we talk about "trauma" in everyday common parlance with what the leading trauma psychiatrists are saying about trauma.

I get the feeling that you have quite entrenched views about this, and research here is quite recent, you may not be aware of it, or you may not be interested - either way that is fine - I think I have been as clear as I can be and if you are not convinced at the moment, that is fine I will leave it there with you.

PS There is quite good evidence for a genetic factor
could you link this?

@quicknclean

Regarding a genetic factor in BPD, some examples of research:

www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0442-0

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002239562031133X

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X17301987

www.researchgate.net/profile/Haya-Fatimah/publication/334547693_Familial_factors_and_the_risk_of_borderline_personality_pathology_genetic_and_environmental_transmission/links/5f98a726a6fdccfd7b84ad76/Familial-factors-and-the-risk-of-borderline-personality-pathology-genetic-and-environmental-transmission.pdf

I’d be interested to know what your working definition of trauma is.

The theory as regards strep is that antibodies may invade the basal ganglia and trigger OCD in susceptible people. It’s not totally clear. Incidentally I did a genetic test which also also showed I had a high risk for early onset OCD.

I’m not able to listen to Kolk just now but I am surmising that he may be in favour of the diagnosis of complex PTSD. I am aware that there is a lot of tension about whether BPD and complex PTSD are the same and that some would like to throw out BPD altogether. I have some understanding about the issues at stake in this dispute.

I’m not sure which part of my views seems entrenched. I’ve clearly acknowledged that trauma plays a role in the development of some mental illness, especially BPD. I’m not some sort of genetic essentialist and recognise that as with everything there is a balance of nature and nurture. This goes for that majority of diseases.

But I began my tirade because it seemed like some were suggesting that all labels should go and all mental illnesses were just trauma, and that’s just not a case you can reasonably make.

I think that people may believe that by putting trauma front and centre as an explanation this is somehow going to be destigmatising for mental illness, but whilst this is going to be helpful for some people, it’s going to be problematic and actively stigmatising for other people in a variety of ways.

But I began my tirade because it seemed like some were suggesting that all labels should go and all mental illnesses were just trauma, and that’s just not a case you can reasonably make

I did not say ALL mental illnesses were just trauma at all. I said all the labels like BPD for women who suffered trauma were rubbish. I still stand by that. It is the new name for hysteria.

@ATieLikeRichardGere - there is no medication to treat EUPD as such, however plenty that help with the symptoms

What also turned my stomach was Justin timberlake crawling out of the woodwork.
He’s the sonofabitch who set off this chain reaction all those years ago saying Britney had cheated on him and he was so heartbroken when in fact he was cheating too!
Also heard the recording of him being asked on a radio station if he had sex with her and he said yes and then all these seedy grown men laughing and whooping live on air.. disgusting

@ConstanceGracy

What also turned my stomach was Justin timberlake crawling out of the woodwork. He’s the sonofabitch who set off this chain reaction all those years ago saying Britney had cheated on him and he was so heartbroken when in fact he was cheating too! Also heard the recording of him being asked on a radio station if he had sex with her and he said yes and then all these seedy grown men laughing and whooping live on air.. disgusting

For sure. He can fuck off.

It’s difficult to assess her mental health from the transcript of her testimony. Given the information about how she has been forced to live - that would make anyone crazy.

I can see now why she looked distressed on social media footage.

It may be the conditions in which she had been kept rather than underlying mental illness at issue. Or both.

@Awalkintime

I don’t agree with you but that’s fine. It’s ok to disagree.

It’s just that taken together all the statements below from this thread, to me it represents a really troubling perspective on mental illness that is going to be stigmatising for a lot of people.

I think psychiatry is abusive and that all the labels - bipolar, PBD is all crap and they're all labels for women who have suffered trauma.

Even a trauma expert (may have been Kluft?) stated that the DSM was simply a list of descriptions but now people think these 'illnesses' actually exist!

I used to work with people with bipolar and have yet to meet one who wasn't seriously abused in childhood.

things like BPD are exactly the same thing as 'hysteria' back in the day.

People who've suffered trauma don't always consciously remember they have especially if it happened at a particularly young age

if you reframe how you see life and your received narratives about things like "shoulds" and learn to tolerate uncertainties and understand and live within your limits you are unlikely to get depressed

I don’t want anyone out there to read this sort of thing and think it’s some sort of legitimate consensus that these conditions aren’t real or that trauma is the only explanation.

Her testimony was heartbreaking she done really well. ❤ #freeBritney.

ATieLikeRichardGere No one ever thinks it's the only explanation and the be all and end all but people can and will think differently especially when there are lots of evidence to support the way they think. Maybe it might help them to see that they could be being mislabelled and challenge their own diagnosis like Britney? Seeing these things might help some women see what has really happened to them. I hope so.

I have seen a lot of evidence to support my thinking and I think it is so damaging not to challenge it when we get cases in plain sight like Britney leading to people being mistreated, abused and manipulated for no good reason because someone has slapped a label on them that others will judge. People have long questioned and challenged misogyny and oppressive practices and been labelled themselves for challenging things.

But Britney may or may not have bipolar disorder or another psychiatric issue. We don’t have access to this info but either way, how she has been treated looks abusive and wrong. You don’t need to challenge a diagnostic label like bipolar to challenge misogyny or the fact that a court may have made poor decisions with regard to her capacity and rights. If anything, thinking that you have to challenge the diagnostic label and somehow prove that she is not actually mentally ill in order to have rights, is perpetuating mental illness stigma.

@ATieLikeRichardGere

But Britney may or may not have bipolar disorder or another psychiatric issue. We don’t have access to this info but either way, how she has been treated looks abusive and wrong. You don’t need to challenge a diagnostic label like bipolar to challenge misogyny or the fact that a court may have made poor decisions with regard to her capacity and rights. If anything, thinking that you have to challenge the diagnostic label and somehow prove that she is not actually mentally ill in order to have rights, is perpetuating mental illness stigma.

This is so true.

I can't remember if it was on this thread or another and haven't got time to look! but a pp discussed how in the UK, the courts will always try to make interventions as minimal as possible- for somebody struggling with mental health problems to be able to have as much control over their own lives as possible.

It's important to remember this- if Britney does have ongoing illness, it doesn't mean that she is in the same position she was in when the conservatorship began 13 years ago (if indeed it was ever appropriate even then). She shouldn't have to prove that she no longer has ongoing illness in order to get back control of her life- if she lived in the UK she would never have been under so much control to start with.

No one is saying that it would be best for her to be left entirely to her own devices but I don't believe that a conservatorship is appropriate at all and I think it's very very likely that she would want to engage with decent HCP's, lawyers etc (can you blame her though for her trust being completely shattered after all that she has been through) to have a plan in place that worked for her and that also allowed her to live her life how she chooses.

No one knows what her diagnosis is or if any but far too many are being abused by the system, you only have to look at the family courts in the UK to see how mental health stigma is used against mothers to prevent them from reporting abuse or prevent their testimonies being relied upon in court.

I didn't say you have to prove it to have rights at all, what I did say if far too many are having their rights taken away because of this. Far too many women know they are mislabelled and feel unable to challenge it when they have it slapped on them and far too many of us are seeing the mislabelling of others when it is clear that will cause more damage than good and prevent them from getting the proper support they need.

Yes of course we should be able to challenge what people say if we don't think it is right, hence why women have always been and still continue to be mislabelled to keep them quiet and to make sure anything they say from that point be discredited.

You know how women are told their mental health will improve when they leave their abusive husband? I imagine the same could be said for her. If she was released from her father and managements control, I think she’d get a lot better very quickly.

I think she did very well to talk about all of this. 13 years (plus) of abuse at the hands of her own family, show me someone who wouldn’t be a little emotional and disorganised in their thoughts the first time they get to speak about it. Women have a long history of being declared mentally ill for showing emotion or not “behaving”.

@Awalkintime

But I began my tirade because it seemed like some were suggesting that all labels should go and all mental illnesses were just trauma, and that’s just not a case you can reasonably make

I did not say ALL mental illnesses were just trauma at all. I said all the labels like BPD for women who suffered trauma were rubbish. I still stand by that. It is the new name for hysteria.

You also said that bipolar is one of those labels.

TurquoiseLemur

I don't deny that. I still believe that many women are given that label when they have suffered trauma and are not and have seen evidence of it myself.

Not sure why you queried that because that is not what that comment says.