To not swap land with my neighbour?

[TreeTrials]

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

Can I have your car please, Cranky. I could really do with one.

You're surely not so much of a cunt as to refuse me something I want are you???

Sorry, but no way would I go along with this.

This would need to be done legally and put on plans for the houses otherwise they could sell up and you be forced to give back the land you got in the exchange. Also they have the poten5 to add a huge amount of value to their property based on you swapping land and they are being cheeky trying to gain from you being generous enough to 'swap' land.
Check your deeds to make sure the wall is actually yours and don't make any offers before seeking legal advice as any perceived agreement could come back to bite you.
If you are not going to swap, you need to put it in writing that you do not consent to them using your land and any plans to go ahead and build on your land will result in legal action.
Depending on their plans, they might not need planning permission, so be aware of this before assuming they do.

@Sporranrummager summed it up perfectly. If they are not willing to make those terms then no!
Also I'd imagine that the wall has various insects living in it and the trees, most likely, have nesting birds which makes it illegal to chop them down.
I'd tell them politely, but firmly, No!

Now I think you’re getting hung up on the finer nuances of curse words AWB. I don’t personally think being a bastard is necessarily preferable to being a cunt.

historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/guide-for-owners-of-listed-buildings/guide-for-owners-listed-buildings/

historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/

Sorry op just apprised myself of your updates! I think you and your DH seem entirely reasonable... Gosh, the cuntery of the general population is breathtaking though!

Can I have a portion of your garden, @CrankyFrankie?

If you express reluctance, I will just have the plans drawn up anyway, & will certainly demonstrate that I have not considered any legal, financial, mortgage/asset depreciation, boundary or conservation issues.

It will only be a few months of hassle while builders swarm all over your property, & you (nor the TPO or consevation area folk) won't mind the ancient plants & trees being uprooted or dying off in the process. And a modern garage slap on the edge of your boundary will be much nicer to look at than your centuries-old protected wall.

Don't worry about me claiming title to your land with a lot of promises, then reneging so that you find out your garden is never restored to its former glory, & that I've misrepresented the height & window placement of my spanking new "garage", which by the way I will soon convert to a noisy workshop, or maybe a teenager's annexe, or erect a balcony on so I have a lovely view of both our gardens.
Because you'll have a contract! - & it never costs any money, time or grief to enforce the legals when one party cheats.

Obviously it would be FAR easier for you to give me what I want & endure the inevitable fallout as it goes increasingly tits up, than for me to suffer any minor disappointment that only the land I purchased actually belongs to me, & that other people's preferences & property deeds are as valid as mine.

@TreeTrials how are things going? It’s all a bit 😳😳😳

Have you replied to their plans yet or still drafting a needless lengthy email? @TreeTrials

When a "that's nice. Shame your wanting our property to do it as we already told you no. Our property is listed and the trees are protected. We are not interested in doing a swap/giving/selling you our property.

@TreeTrials

Re the wall - it's a short, ramshackled thing not of any great merit (except the stones are old). It's not visible from the road. It's barely visible from our garden (bushes etc in the way) and it's not visible from the neighbours as their run down garage sits alongside it. Have it moved and rebuilt won't affect the value of our property at all.

Op it doesn’t matter what state the wall is in. My house has a 400- year old wall around it, it’s a listed building and we are in a conservation area.

When we had to rebuild part of the wall for safety reasons we had to get permission (took forever) then we had to rebuild using the same bricks or as near as we could get to the originals (sourcing the bricks took forever). We were not allowed to deviate from the original site of the wall at all, and when we asked if we could put a small gate in it the council nearly had apoplexy. Building inspectors would come round 2 or 3 times a week to make sure it was all being done correctly.

It isn’t just a matter of letting them have your wall/land.

And tell your husband he will only look a twat if he goes ahead with this ludicrous plan.

*Op it doesn’t matter what state the wall is in. My house has a 400- year old wall around it, it’s a listed building and we are in a conservation area.

When we had to rebuild part of the wall for safety reasons we had to get permission (took forever) then we had to rebuild using the same bricks or as near as we could get to the originals (sourcing the bricks took forever). We were not allowed to deviate from the original site of the wall at all, and when we asked if we could put a small gate in it the council nearly had apoplexy. Building inspectors would come round 2 or 3 times a week to make sure it was all being done correctly.

It isn’t just a matter of letting them have your wall/land.

And tell your husband he will only look a twat if he goes ahead with this ludicrous plan.*

Oh and the cost to rebuild (approx 3mtres x 4 metres) was £9,000, and that was 25 years ago.

This might be a bit late but why don't you inform them of the fact the wall is listed. Ask them to check whether the wall can be moved and once they have an answer to that, then you'll have a chat about next steps.
If you're right and they don't get permission then they'll be forced to change their plans. You'll not be the ones to say no.

@Cantstopeatingchocolate

This might be a bit late but why don't you inform them of the fact the wall is listed. Ask them to check whether the wall can be moved and once they have an answer to that, then you'll have a chat about next steps. If you're right and they don't get permission then they'll be forced to change their plans. You'll not be the ones to say no.

There's nothing wrong with saying no...

But they clearly don't want to say an outright no
They want to place obstacles and HOPE the neighbours change their minds.

@Cantstopeatingchocolate

But they clearly don't want to say an outright no They want to place obstacles and HOPE the neighbours change their minds.

Yes, I agree. I find it totally unfathomable, tbh.

@Cantstopeatingchocolate

This might be a bit late but why don't you inform them of the fact the wall is listed. Ask them to check whether the wall can be moved and once they have an answer to that, then you'll have a chat about next steps. If you're right and they don't get permission then they'll be forced to change their plans. You'll not be the ones to say no.

Don't do this.

Just say NO FFS!

Don't do it if you don't want to. I did something like this to keep the peace and bitterly regretted it. They took more than they were entitiled to as well. So much so, I had to move, I lost my lovely garden and bungalow and have never regretted anything more.

@QueeniesCroft fgs ... I'd be seething

The benefit seem all one way so I wouldn't agree . There is no benefit to you and once you lose your privacy you will be unhappy and it will detract from any sale in the future . People are so damn cheeky these days .

Dunno

It would be a definite no from me. Even if promises are made to source mature trees and sort the wall as time goes on once the switch is made they will go back on these things (mature trees are expensive!) and that will be allowed as long as they made 'every effort'.

I think moving on from a hard No would actually be easier than stringing them along and hoping they make the right choice.

The only way would be for them to buy that bit of land beforehand (as you don’t want the ‘swap parcel’. AND For you to get survey and quotes for replacement trees (survey because you may be told there’s no way of replacing them) and for them to pay you that sum beforehand. As part of the agreement and before any work. They’d need to also pay upfront for you o gaining listed permission etc. So you would need payment for all of these things up front so no danger of them reneging.

Still very very firmly of the opinion you should simply be saying no - wouldn’t dream of interfering with ancient listed wall and mature trees for a garage ! You also don’t want to do it. So dont !

Have you had a response to the email yet @TreeTrials ?

Now we know all the details - listed property, etc., I would have thought the best advice would be an emphatic ‘No, never in a million years.’ These CF’s have actually had plans drawn up for building on the OPs land before anything has even been properly discussed, let alone agreed, and that should be the biggest warning that they’re determined to get their own way - including making the OP feel ‘guilty’ because their property is bigger !! FFS - they knew what they were buying and if it’s no longer suitable they should move, not try to bully the neighbours so they can shoehorn in an extension.

OP, the ONLY sensible course of action here is to say no - you don’t have to give a reason. I would tell them “No” verbally and then follow it up in writing, and keep a copy, so that if they try anything underhand, you have proof that you haven’t agreed to anything. If you want to try to keep things civil by explaining your reasons for refusing, tell them:

We’re very sorry but we do not want to enter into this, or any other agreement for a number of reasons. Firstly, instead of a properly appraised sale of the land in question, at the current market price, you are proposing swapping’ a valuable piece of our garden for a useless piece of yours. This would be unacceptable under any circumstances as it would affect the value of our property and would almost certainly be unacceptable to our mortgage provider, from whom we would have to seek permission.

Secondly, and most importantly, our property and wall are listed, which means that costly, specialist planning permission has to be obtained before building work of any kind can be done. We have investigated and it’s a certainty that permission would not be granted to move or alter the wall in any way as it is listed along with the building and, by law, has to be kept in its’ original position and condition.

We are very concerned that you have gone as far as having plans drawn up for the proposed building work before the issue of the land in question has even been discussed properly and we would like to make it clear that we do not, under any circumstances intend to swap or sell our land, or give permission for any building work which encroaches onto our land. Furthermore, if any revised plans for building work within your own boundary results in any damage whatsoever to the wall, you should be advised that there are hefty fines applicable for which we would hold you liable, in addition to covering any damage caused to our property during the course of the works.

No absolute minefield !