To not swap land with my neighbour?

[TreeTrials]

Our neighbours are wanting to renovate their garage to incorporate it into their house. It sits alongside our garden boundary wall which is at an angle. Than angle makes it hard for them to do the changes they want because the room would be very narrow at the bottom.

They have previously talked to us about swapping land so they have a more regular shaped room. We expressed reluctance as we don't need the land they were offering and we have some mature bushes/trees growing out of the wall (it's a wide very old stone one). These trees and bushes provide privacy screening so that we don't see their house. If they are cut down, or die due to disturbed roots, we'll be staring at the side of their house rather than greenery. That was the end of the conversation.

They have now sent through technical drawings for their proposal and the proposed wall for the renovated garage appears be to on our land. It feels a bit cheeky given how we'd left things.

Should we let them proceed? The land is the corner of our garden and isn't used for anything useful - it's very dark and full of garden junk. I feel for them that the shape of the land makes their plans pretty hard to achieve with the boundary plan as it is.

My main concern is loss of privacy from the loss of the trees. But then I'm wondering what the situation would be if they change their plans to follow the boundary - they may still end up killing the trees as I imagine the roots will be disturbed whatever work they do. If this is going to be the case (not that I want them to kill our trees!) should we just suck it up?

I don't know for certain, but am reasonably sure the wall is ours as our house was built a long time before theirs. I've attached a very bad drawing.

YABU - it's only a small amount of land and makes their plans possible. Suck it up.

YANBU - you don't have to give away your land and lose your trees to make your neighbours' life better.

@1ittlegreen

People on MN often advocate bluntness with people who are mugging you off but this situation is more nuance.

You obviously want to keep a good relationship with your neighbours (let's face it, bad relationships with neighbours can make your lives hell) but from your post the most important thing to you is the beautiful old stone wall and the lovely, mature shrubs you have

I agree that they are CF and they perhaps do not understand it's not just about the space. Planting bamboo is not a substitute for established shrubs.

I think you should go with the approach that they may have misunderstood your initial refusal and tell them how you feel - it sounds to me like the stone wall is part of the character of the property and why you love it.

Tell them you don't want to see a new build as it ruins the integrity of the space and perhaps they can agree to pay some traditional stone masons and landscapers to renew these parts of the land once their garage has been built.. all drawn up by solicitors of course.

Go lightly but don't deviate from what you would be prepared to accept. Good luck OP!

you haven't take into account that the wall appears to be listed...also CF's by definition don't give a toss about other people's feelings. Being clear is not necessarily going to trash a relationship, just as fluffing about is not going to preserve it. One of my neighbours periodically has ideas about what they to do about aspects of our shared drive space. they come to me with the latest -harebrained- unusual scheme and I say "I am really sorry that's not going to work for me" If they push the point, I say "no I won't agree to that" It used to be we won't agree but I lost DH 10 years ago so I deal with it on my own now. Same answers though.... We both lived here many years and continue on good terms. Yes some of the blunter answers on here are said with tongue in cheek, but I have found that polite calm clarity is the best option with reasonable people. With unreasonable people, NOTHING except rudeness works.

@Schooldilemma2345

We had a situation where we were building a side return kitchen extension up to a party boundary and it would have been really useful if our sink could have drained into neighbour’s drain. We asked very nicely and provided a plan to illustrate and the neighbour came back with a very polite positive ‘yes’ on the proviso we paid £50k to cover disruption etc. Needless to say we didn’t pursue it!! Perhaps do similar?

the problem with that is when they cough up the cash and OP has to say well actually we meant no.

Don’t give them your bit of land. Offer to sell it to them. You could get a fair amount for it

YANBU. Tell them to get stuffed.

@mzhz - I’m not sure the op and her dh are even decided from what I’ve read. The impression I get is that they’d ideally like the decision to be taken out of their hands, but I’m not sure they’re actually going to say ‘no’ if that doesn’t happen. I do wonder if these neighbours are less cf than we’ve been assuming, and may have reason to think the op was on board because her comments on here are very mixed. At some points seeming to argue for the work.

Op - if you are still reading, I hope all these posts have convinced you that if you have even the slightest, most trivial reservation about this plan the only sensible course of action is to politely, firmly and clearly say no. Don’t rely on the council stepping in to stop it or go ahead relying heavily on conditions in a contract.

YANBU don't just say no( even though that's a complete sentence) tell them to cease and desist !

@pinkmagnolias yea you can!

My mum went on holiday and came back to a fence that had moved 6ft closer to her house because the neighbours wanted a vegetable patch.

Her deeds show it as hers, and she spent thousands trying to get it back before she ran out of money. They still have the land.

The value of her house goes up, what are you getting??? If you have a price, name it. If not then just say no and give reasons as mentioned on here.

Unpopular answer but I think you should let them do it. Life is too short to be worrying about something so minor... plant more trees/ shrubs/ build a shed - endless possibilities! If you don’t like seeing into their garage/ them seeing into your house from their garage.

I deal with planning permissions for extensions and, while every case is unique and every local authority deals with applications on a case-by-case basis, I cannot see how they could get such an application through without your consent on several levels;

1. They do not own the land they need - no planning authority will approve an application for a development on land that the applicant does not own.
2. They do not own the wall (by the sound of your description)
3. Building closer than 1metre from the boundary will attract special attention/ may not be permitted without a Party Wall agreement.
4. (Without knowing your circumstances) the '45 degree rule' may be applicable if their proposals block light or sight lines from your house.

I wouldn't worry too much, they need your acceptance and approval before they can go ahead.
Just make sure you respond telling them that you do not agree (in writing if it were me) - as they will be required to make various legal declarations regarding ownership of land and notification of the landowner if they don't, etc.

It sounds like this will not happen, but if they do proceed with an application, will be knocked back after a period of 3-9months (Most planning departments are bogged down at the moment and some tricky applications are running at more than 12 months!).

(PS This does not represent legal/planning advice.) :-)

[quote Thehop]@pinkmagnolias yea you can!

My mum went on holiday and came back to a fence that had moved 6ft closer to her house because the neighbours wanted a vegetable patch.

Her deeds show it as hers, and she spent thousands trying to get it back before she ran out of money. They still have the land.[/quote]
😲😱that's unbelievable!

also CF's by definition don't give a toss about other people's feelings

If a neighbour can only maintain good relations by acceding to an unwanted request for land, I would hazard that the neighbour insisting on the land is already so unreasonable that they cannot be trusted with the complicated legal, asset-managing, compliance & financial implications inherent to their ridiculous & selfish proposal.

In short, as per many PP's, OP is going to fall out with her neighbours far harder by going along with their scheme than she will from any frostiness about a polite refusal.

OP, if you decide to do it, it is essential that it is done properly. Your mortgagee (if you have a mortgage) will have to agree, the changes must be correctly recorded at the Land Registry, you should have a Party Wall agreement (under the Party Walls Act), and the new wall should be completed to your reasonable satisfaction. All this will cost, and take time. Your neighbours should pay for all of it. As one poster estimated, it could cost £10,000 or more ...

They do not own the land they need - no planning authority will approve an application for a development on land that the applicant does not own.

Yes they can and do. Anyone is entitled to apply for planning permission on any bit of land but you do have to inform the owners.

If you're not happy, just say no.

I suspect the OP will name change then ask again in a couple of weeks.

You're going to end up in prison when this all goes wrong. Just say no now. There is no benefit in this for you.

@Thehop

As much as I want to believe that, the fence was on her land. All she had to do was pull it down, and have a fence built back on the boundary. Simply continue using her own land. Let them take her to court and prove it belonged to them..... because it didnt so they wouldn't.
She could still do that.

@TreeTrials

If this was just my call I'd say 'sorry that doesn't work for me' but DH is pretty clear that he wants to pass the ball back to them to show that it's not going to work from a financial or hassle perspective. On that basis I'm trying to draft something which achieves that.

But they can short term agree to anything. I can see your DH's logic but you see so many CF tales on here we can all see the unhappy ending coming. He's being way too naive.

I can’t be bothered to read all this. Seriously you are actually asking if you should donate land to someone because they asked for it. I’m amazed you actually even ask a bunch of strangers. Of course NO!

@Librariesmakeshhhhappen that’s exactly what I would do.

It was a long long time ago, and she’s always been a nob. There’ll have been some reason.

It's too close to your wall anyway. It would create lots of maintenance issues for them unless they knocked down your wall... Get your house plans pronto and check your boundaries as you might find they're encroaching more than you realise.

this exact situation was experienced by my MiL. After the deed was dome it was a nightmare. Because the neighbour had had 'use of the land' for 7yrs it was deemed that they owned it, when not a brass farthing had changed hand DONOT DO IT

Once I would have considered a request like this. Then our neighbour asked if he could move our boundary a tiny bit (the boundary ran down the middle of an old stone wall, and he wanted to put a new fence just to our side of it.
My husband has known the neighbour all his life and it didn't occur to him that he was talking about anything more than a couple of inches, so he agreed- I'd have told him to put it on his own side! The fence was put up nearly 2 metres inside our boundary and is approximately 200 metres long.
These days, my husband isn't allowed to make decisions like that on his own and uses "You'll have to ask Queenie" as his excuse. Nobody ever does ask me because they know I don't mind saying no.

Not your problem. Tell them to jog on (unless they can offer £1,000,000) 😂