To not understand the vaccine drama

[Lei8133]

I am so confused by all this anti-vaxxer hate and mandating the COVID vaccine for certain professions extra. IMO if you have had the vaccine (which I have, well I’m awaiting my 2nd dose) surely people who haven’t had the jab pose no increased threat to us. The only people they cause harm to are fellow anti-vaxxers and other unvaccinated people for whom the risk is always present.

Surely whether we like it or not it is a personal choice whether you receive the vaccine or not and the freedom of choice is something we should all advocate for whether we agree with the decision or not surely?!? I just don’t get it and the divide it is causes amongst friends, family and the greater society is saddening. AIBU?!?! If so can someone explain to me how unvaccinated relatives and friends are potentially harmful to me despite having received the jab?

Another example of somone thinking they get to lecture a random stranger on their medical choices while calling them arrogant

The irony

@CaraherEIL Can I just revert to an argument I made earlier that the intervention of medicine can be considered ‘unnatural’ why should someone be degraded for simply wanting to live...? P.S. the world will never be a safe place - risks are everywhere, some obviously greater than others, you cannot safeguard against everything and in someways aren’t we a little odd/silly for wanting to try when ultimately you cannot evade death and let’s face it this is all about our fear of dying or being seriously ill. But living a full life cannot be achieved when you are so risk adverse that you try to safeguard against every possibility that may cause you harm...

I mean I can wholeheartedly say that I am getting the jab for myself and only me. How am I any better than someone who decides not to have the jab for their own benefit?!?! Point blank at the end of the day do we really care about every man woman & child or do we just care for ourselves and our loved ones?!?!

Also there will always be a percentage of the population who are unvaccinated even if vaccinations became mandatory... so the threat is ever present...

Doesn’t make the facts about vaccinations wrong and we are all relying on random strangers in bringing Covid to an end, it’s the nature of herd immunity. The medical facts about how vaccinations eliminate disease are inarguable and so people can choose not to get a vaccination and talk openly about their choice but they are relying on random strangers getting vaccinated to eventually contain the pandemic, That seems arrogant to me.

Lei8, no I respect everyone’s right to choose but I think a worldwide pandemic qualifies as a highly unusual high risk situation. Unvaccinated people are hosts for spreading and mutating. Yes there will be a proportion that remain unvaccinated but the smaller amount of people the better. If there is a true medical reason to not have a vaccination then that’s fine but it everyone chose not to be vaccinated then the only hope of herd immunity and a resumption of normal life is vast amount of deaths, possibly more sinister mutations and larger numbers of people with long Covid.
The science is so strong this is why it feels so frustrating and pointless trying to argue with or persuade people to get vaccinated.

The world feels quite safe for me now thanks. My life has changed very little since last March other than that I permanently work from home. I'm not waiting to be allowed to resume normal life, because nothing will change for me. So please don't make out like you're altruistically doing me a huge favour by getting vaccinated because you're not.

As for people not having the vaccine trying to indoctrinate others, I've seen none of that. What I have seen everywhere are all manner of tactics trying to persuade people to have it, from celebrity endorsement , to the denigration of anyone who refuses, to employers insisting on it. My own employer has regular calls where they ask people to share their vaccination status. I opt out of those discussions because much like an electoral vote, my decision is my own. I'll discuss it anonymously here, but I'm certainly not running around in RL telling people to avoid it...but I am being bombarded with people asking if I've had it, when I'm having it, letters from the NHS (4 so far) reminding me to book my appointment...

@Grenlei

People need to stop parroting the trope that if you don't have the vaccine you'll end up using hospital resources.

I've had Covid. I didn't need hospital or even a GP. I've not seen any evidence that says having had it once and suffered no more than mild flu like symptoms I'm bound to be hospitalised next time.

Of all the many people I know who have had Covid, only 2 of them needed medical treatment (and only one of them was admitted to hospital).

Conversely, I know 3 people who have been hospitalised following the vaccine, and one who died.

Have you heard of transmission? Who knows who contracted it from an infected person and who it was passed on to, who passed it onto 5 others and then it snowballs and hospital resources, testing resources and budgets are used to maintain and control this. So yes. It does.

Or what happens when people have to isolate for 10 days plus or their contacts do? What happens if they can't do their jobs or get out and contribute to the economy by spending in shops etc?

@JassyRadlett

And most people will do something unsafe at some point in their lives. Should we start shunning them ? Maybe they should wear a yellow star, while you're at it.

Please don’t draw disgusting false equivalences between people bearing some mirror disapproval for their choices that have an impact on others and the organised, state-sponsored racist genocide of the Holocaust.

At best, it’s horrifically ignorant and insensitive; at worst it’s anti-semitic.

Thank you. Abhorrent ignorance.

I respect the right to choose if you have the vaccine or not. However I do judge those who are chosing not to have it, for no valid medical reason, to be both selfish and ill-informed. Its judgy, but that is how I feel.

@MyrrAgain the post you quote was responding to those PP who said that I was selfish by not having the vaccine as WHEN (not if) I end up in hospital with Covid, I'd expect treatment, etc.

They weren't referring to transmission, but since you raise it - as I've said I only leave the house once a week to shop in a socially distanced fashion. So arguably I have about as much risk (or less) of transmitting Covid - if I get it again or am asymptomatically carrying it - than a vaccinated person (who can still transmit the virus) who is outside the house mixing with 100s of people every day.

If a vaccine provides 80% protection against serious illness then you have a 20% chance when vaccinated of falling seriously ill IF you catch it

This is part of the problem on both sides. People have a poor grasp of statistics, make their own incorrect conclusions from stats they've read and then peddle completely incorrect statements like this as fact.

The chance of falling 'seriously' ill is a tiny percentage of infections, regardless of vaccination status. Therefore you're talking about 20% of an already minute % risk. I can't be bothered to do the maths but the chance of falling 'seriously ill' when vaccinated is tiny, far lower than a 1% risk - and nowhere near 20%!

@Grenlei Of course you don’t have to say; but I’m interested to know whether as someone who is not getting the vaccine do you openly support and encourage others to get it or are you not bothered if people get it or do you not care either way? Are the restrictions/lockdowns irritating you?

I’m just interested to see if like some have said, people not getting the vaccine want the benefits without putting themselves ‘at risk’. I asked you because I know you don’t want the jab and are very forthcoming in sharing your opinion.
Many thanks

It was always going to be this way. The selfish anti-vaxxer narrative has been pushed for a long time. Divide and conquer and all that.

@Lei8133 I'm not actively encouraging anyone else to have it, but I'm certainly not trying to persuade anyone to my point of view either. A lot of people I know both at and outside work have been vaccinated and I've not told any of them I won't be having it, or my concerns. As far as I'm concerned they will have made the right decision for them and it's not my place to try and influence that. The only people who know I'm not having it are my partner (who feels similarly) and my children (both over 18) who are undecided.

The current level of restriction doesn't really affect me as my life is quite small - I appreciate I'm fortunate in that and it's not the same for everyone. I am also a bit sceptical about when/if things will go back to pre March 2020, even if everyone who could be vaccinated was.

I'm not a regular foreign traveller and although I would hope to travel abroad again at some point in my life, if it becomes mandatory to be vaccinated to do so, as and when we can travel abroad, I will have to either forego that, or reconsider my decision on the vaccination.

Thanks @Grenlei for your candid response. I find it interesting that most of the hostile negative energy IMO and in my interactions comes mainly from the pro covid vaccination people. But again, a lot of people have explained why not vaccinating makes them so irate and their POV. It’s just that I don’t get it... maybe I’m just thick?!?!

I’ll be totally honest @Lei8133. I’m trying to be understanding and level headed. But if our vaccination levels mean that it’s even longer before my home country will let UK residents over their borders (which have been closed since March 2020, and will be closed until at least June 2022), I will try to be civil but god I’ll be angry. I miss my family horribly. They are missing my children’s childhoods. I am finding the enforced separation incredibly hard and while I support everyone’s right to make the choice for themselves, if that choice fucks further my chance of seeing my family I will privately feel very angry and very bitter.

I’m already plenty angry at the government for importing delta for this reason. As time goes on, I find I have plenty of anger and resentment to go around, particularly as I plaster on a smile and pretend to be happy every bloody day.

I think it would be a good idea to develop some conventional vaccines, the sort where you are using a dead version of the vaccine. Then people wouldn't be able to say they don't want to use a relatively new vaccine/gene therapy.

I think there is an element of phycology from Sage etc. with making people turn against each other. Most of the comments here directed to people who are cautious about by the vaccine come directly from statements that have been but out by sage/the government.

@tttigress this is one of the arguments my friend made. I defo think it would stop a lot of the controversy if they did.

@JassyRadlett I can completely understand that and maybe it’s because I have the luxury of having all my family here with me, my parents/grandparents sadly have passed so I’m not missing out much and perhaps that’s why selfishly I can sit on my high horse and say I don’t get all the venom towards those who don’t want the vaccine?!?

I have no problem with anti vaxxers as long as they keep their views to themselves.
I have a relative that fancies herself as an insta influencer and has been posting drivel regarding the vaccination for months. I eventually reacted, by private message, and asked her how she would feel if she convinced someone to not have the vaccine who then went on to die of Covid. She politely blocked me. This is someone who pumped fertility drugs into her body for years and regularly drinks to excess.
I think her views are based on social media attention seeking rather than intellectually informed opinion.
Fortunately the rest of the family are firmly pro vaccine so are hopefully protected if she falls victim to the virus. I’m fairly sure she has never tested positive, I’m sure it would have been all over her social media.

I think everyone has the right to refuse the vaccine (even if it is a stupid thing to do), but I think they should have their lives restricted (no right to use public transport, no sending their children to school, not allowed to attend large sporting events etc.). So that they do not endanger those who cannot have the vaccine. Choices have to have consequences.

@osprey24

I think everyone has the right to refuse the vaccine (even if it is a stupid thing to do), but I think they should have their lives restricted (no right to use public transport, no sending their children to school, not allowed to attend large sporting events etc.). So that they do not endanger those who cannot have the vaccine. Choices have to have consequences.

But people who can not have the vaccine are just as dangerous as people who choose not to have it.

Saying that, I do not believe either of them are dangerous at all, and this trope that unvaccinated people are deadly biohazards needs to stop.

I think everyone has the right to refuse the vaccine (even if it is a stupid thing to do), but I think they should have their lives restricted (no right to use public transport, no sending their children to school, not allowed to attend large sporting events etc.). So that they do not endanger those who cannot have the vaccine. Choices have to have consequences.

Chilling

@WendyWoofer

Nobody is bullying you. You started accusing me of all sorts that I didn’t say. I defended myself. End of.

Can you point out what I have falsely accused you of? I. Not aware of any false accusations I have made towards or about you? If you can show me where I have made a false accusation I will apologise.

I will ask for the 2nd time, can you tell me where I have accused you of "all sorts" that you didn't say? If you say that, I assume you can back it up? It's just that since I asked you to clarify the exact details you seem to have gone rather quiet

The suggestion of restricting access to public transport and schools is, I agree, chilling.

That's a real slippery slope.

And why are we punishing children in this scenario? Whatever next?

This pandemic has really shown up how some people really feel about others. I'm reminded of all those who were informing on others for illegal gatherings or going out more than once a day!