Landlord wants full notice even though selling property.

[gnomeathome]

Our landlord is selling the house we live in, he has given us until 31st August to move out. We have seen countless properties, put offers in etc but most are listed as 'available immediately' . We have lost out on 5 properties so far because we can't move immediately as we have a months notice to give. I have asked him if we can move within 2 weeks because of this issue and he said no, he wants the full months notice (or we would have to pay the difference in rent which we cannot afford to do).
We have had to have potential buyers looking at the house whilst we are still here and the landlord had the gall to say that we were making the house look small by being there whilst buyers and agents were coming around (we are a family). So could we 'pop out' during all viewings!

AIBU to think that not letting us leave early is just plain greedy? At this rate we wont find anywhere to move to that lines up perfectly to the eng of August. Do we legally have to give a months notice if they are the ones who have given us notice?

[quote Hopeful201]@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER, becoming an accidental LL does happen. I had it happen due to moving in with my now DH. We couldn't sell my property (the market was bad) and then it went in to massive negative equity. I couldn't afford to sell. I sold the property as soon as I could, it was horrible being a LL.[/quote]
Was this in the late 80s/early 90s? Things were so bad then, I can see that once you're in negative equity, letting properties was sometimes the only alternative to repossession for people who had no choice but to move and didn't have the cash to clear the balance of the mortgage.

@khakiandcoral

Caffeinatedmonstergirl

Are you being serious??? For all we know he might be an accidental landlord and cannot afford to let his tenants leave without the full month’s notice that they are legally obligated to give. I’m a (accidental) landlady and certainly couldn’t afford to lose out on two weeks of rent. I also rented myself for years before owning a property and accepted that these things can happen. I certainly wouldn’t have made life difficult for my landlord by refusing to give access to the property for viewings, that’s just vindictive and spiteful.

I don't share the usual and ridiculous hatred against landlords that you find generally on MN, but in this instance, you are being ridiculous.

It's the landlord who is giving notice, is selling no less. So yes, he should let the tenants leave early, he's the one making life of tenants difficult, not the other way round. It will make the sell a hell of a lot easier for him too, most people won't touch a property occupied by tenants, even if they are on notice!

Too much hassle if they trash the place, refuse to leave and so on.

Why should tenants be forced to stay (when they could have moved) AND help with viewings?

You are the one being ridiculous! Forced to stay?! The tenants signed an agreement before they moved in stating how much notice needed to be given on either side! Either abide by that or don’t rent! If the landlord chooses and can afford to be flexible then that’s a bonus, but there is absolutely nothing wrong ethically or in any other way about insisting on the full notice period.

Are you being serious??? For all we know he might be an accidental landlord and cannot afford to let his tenants leave without the full month’s notice that they are legally obligated to give. I’m a (accidental) landlady and certainly couldn’t afford to lose out on two weeks of rent. I also rented myself for years before owning a property and accepted that these things can happen. I certainly wouldn’t have made life difficult for my landlord by refusing to give access to the property for viewings, that’s just vindictive and spiteful.

Cue: The world's tiniest violin.

@roarfeckingroarr

This right to peaceful enjoyment is always mentioned on here but my new tenants' contract includes a clause agreeing to allow viewings during the final two months of the tenancy, because I'm planning to sell next year (they were made aware). Is this not standard?

It's common. But one, just because you write something in a contract doesn't mean it's enforceable. Two, if your tenant breaks any term of their tenancy agreement, your legal remedies are to sue for damages, to gain an access order, or/and to evict them. Your tenancy agreement cannot grant you any authority to enter the property without the tenant's permission.

@Caffeinatedmonstergirl I think people are responding to you because you are speaking as the landlord is behaving.

You are right in that the tenant 'owes' you a months notice. You are not right in thinking you would come out better off in this.

If the tenant doesn't find a property that will wait a month for her notice, she won't move out.

If you have a sale that hinges on the tenant moving out, as the landlord does, you could either lose the sale or be liable for a large fine for breaking exchange/ completion dates.

You, as the landlord, have NO PHYSICAL WAY to remove the tenant at the end of August. They can be the nicest tenant in the world, the most loyal and honest, but if they cannot find a private rental because of the notice period, they can't find it. Social housing won't help them, as you, the landlord, don't have a S21 and an eviction notice. So they are there until the find something privately, or you go for an eviction notice. Meanwhile, your chain has broken down because that process is long and has no guaranteed timescale.

If the tenant has a problem, YOU, the landlord have a problem. That problem in the long run will cost you money, and a lot more than 2 weeks notice.

I am a landlord, I work in a lettings agent, I deal with rents every day, I can promise you that the fool is the one who doesn't think of the longer term consequences of fighting for a tiny bit of rent. Sometimes, you bite your tongue and think of the longer benefits.

@Bells3032

honestly having been a landlord selling a property i did every possible to help my tenants including giving them a discount so they could put down a new deposit.

Your LL wants his cake and eat it too. if he's not allowing any flexibility i'd say don't allow viewings anymore until your last month (double check your contract....most say that you have to allow viewing in the last month) but beyond that you have zero obligation.

Also available immediately doesn't necessarily mean two weeks - some may be willing to wait a month for a good tenant.

Also, let's not forget that he is at risk of you being there for MONTHS after 31st August if he has to take you to court to get you out. I would strongly suggest that you point out to him that if you can't find somewhere suitable then you'll be forced to stay in as the council won't re-house you unless you have been evicted.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I'd ask a lawyer but for a start I'd no longer allow anyone to look around the property. This is for his benefit, not yours - why do him any favours when he won't do you any? Start making his life a bit harder - it's your only bargaining chip

I agree with this. In your position, @gnomeathome, I would say that I was willing to allow more viewings, and possibly to leave the house whilst they take place ONLY if your landlord agrees to reduce your notice period. Play hardball.

@MadameOvary81, you sound like a really lovely LL, and it's refreshing to hear about one who really does right by their tenants.

It's unusual to only have a month's notice. Even in non covid times the notice period on either side is usually three months. However, landlords and tenants can and do negotiate that.

It is a pity your landlord will not release you from the full month but it really is not that long and hardly unreasonable. Of course your place will be easier to view unoccupied, it's highly likely your landlord will not get a tenant until you have gone and doesn't want to lose a month's rent.

If you only have to give a month's notice, I don't really understand what the problem is. Can you not cover this out of your deposit?

You say you have children, it seems a somewhat precarious existence for a family. A single or a couple without children can pick up and move far more easily and quickly.

I wish you good luck in finding somewhere suitable.

Caffeinatedmonstergirl

you can't have it both ways.

If you stick to the contract to the letter, they stay.
But they don't accept any viewings, visits and they should not have allowed a photographer to take pictures of the inside either.

So everybody abides to the contract, and everybody is .. missing out.

[quote KnobJockey]@Caffeinatedmonstergirl I think people are responding to you because you are speaking as the landlord is behaving.

You are right in that the tenant 'owes' you a months notice. You are not right in thinking you would come out better off in this.

If the tenant doesn't find a property that will wait a month for her notice, she won't move out.

If you have a sale that hinges on the tenant moving out, as the landlord does, you could either lose the sale or be liable for a large fine for breaking exchange/ completion dates.

You, as the landlord, have NO PHYSICAL WAY to remove the tenant at the end of August. They can be the nicest tenant in the world, the most loyal and honest, but if they cannot find a private rental because of the notice period, they can't find it. Social housing won't help them, as you, the landlord, don't have a S21 and an eviction notice. So they are there until the find something privately, or you go for an eviction notice. Meanwhile, your chain has broken down because that process is long and has no guaranteed timescale.

If the tenant has a problem, YOU, the landlord have a problem. That problem in the long run will cost you money, and a lot more than 2 weeks notice.

I am a landlord, I work in a lettings agent, I deal with rents every day, I can promise you that the fool is the one who doesn't think of the longer term consequences of fighting for a tiny bit of rent. Sometimes, you bite your tongue and think of the longer benefits.[/quote]
That is well put, 100% correct IMO

@Maggiesfarm

It's unusual to only have a month's notice. Even in non covid times the notice period on either side is usually three months. However, landlords and tenants can and do negotiate that.

It is a pity your landlord will not release you from the full month but it really is not that long and hardly unreasonable. Of course your place will be easier to view unoccupied, it's highly likely your landlord will not get a tenant until you have gone and doesn't want to lose a month's rent.

If you only have to give a month's notice, I don't really understand what the problem is. Can you not cover this out of your deposit?

You say you have children, it seems a somewhat precarious existence for a family. A single or a couple without children can pick up and move far more easily and quickly.

I wish you good luck in finding somewhere suitable.

Where do you get 3 months from? I thought it was one month tenant and two months landlord?

@MitheringSunday

'The landlord isn’t acting out of spite, he is just insisting on what the law says he is entitled to expect. Most decent tenants would accept this and not obstruct viewings etc as petty revenge for the landlord insisting on the full notice that was set out in the tenancy agreement that they both signed.'

A tenant refusing viewings is also 'just insisting on what the law says [they are] entitled to expect' - quiet enjoyment of the property throughout the duration of the rental. Can't you see the massive bias in your thinking about this? I'm sure it stems from the idea (very widespread in the UK) that people who rent somehow aren't quite proper people - the LL gets to insist on their rights, the tenants are supposed to know their place be accommodating and grateful and any attempt to assert their own rights is 'spite'.

No, I can’t see any bias, sorry. When you rent you accept that at some point the property may be needed and the tenancy will end as a result. It’s shit, obviously, but that’s life. It’s one of the downsides of renting. I still don’t think it’s acceptable to deliberately obstruct the landlord trying to sell the property. This never happened to me when I was renting but if it had I would have been fine with viewings as long as I was consulted beforehand and they were conducted at a time that was convenient for me. I can’t even imagine being petty enough to behave in the way that so many posters on this thread are suggesting.

@Caffeinatedmonstergirl as a ll in similar circumstances to you I disagree with your standpoint.

Of course tenants and landlords both have rights.
In this case the landlord has not followed the rules.
He has not given proper notice and yet he is threatening to withhold part of the deposit.
He expects the tenant to allow prospective buyers in.
And the ll should consider the stress and expense for a tenant of moving.
This ll is being obstructive and yet expects the tenant not to be when it suits him.

The type to give landlords a bad name. Stand your ground. Stop all viewings while you are in the property, find somewhere give noice and they can do viewings once you move out. He can’t have his cake and eat it too.

"No, I can’t see any bias, sorry. When you rent you accept that at some point the property may be needed and the tenancy will end as a result. It’s shit, obviously, but that’s life. It’s one of the downsides of renting. I still don’t think it’s acceptable to deliberately obstruct the landlord trying to sell the property. This never happened to me when I was renting but if it had I would have been fine with viewings as long as I was consulted beforehand and they were conducted at a time that was convenient for me. I can’t even imagine being petty enough to behave in the way that so many posters on this thread are suggesting."

£100 says you would have had a problem with viewings because the landlord would not consult beforehand, would not do times to suit you and would e otherwise unreasonable, just like OPs landlord is being.

I’m out. No point in continuing to debate about something that doesn’t remotely affect me. I’ll remain content with my lot and thank fuck that I have the morals to behave decently in my capacity as a landlady and a human being. Very depressing reading some of the views on this thread.

When you rent you accept that at some point the property may be needed and the tenancy will end as a result.

fine

but in the same token, you accept that viewings and photos will not be convenient for your tenants and you will have to wait until they leave to organise any, as it's their absolute right to refuse them.

@Caffeinatedmonstergirl

I’m out. No point in continuing to debate about something that doesn’t remotely affect me. I’ll remain content with my lot and thank fuck that I have the morals to behave decently in my capacity as a landlady and a human being. Very depressing reading some of the views on this thread.

You want the landlord to be inflexible, because you think it touches his wallet

while the tenants should fall over themselves to help out, even if they loose out!

@roarfeckingroarr That clause is absolutely standard, and MOST tenants are fine with it, if you try to be reasonable with viewings. But its completely, 100% unenforceable, as the right to 'quiet enjoyment' of your home trumps it. If the tenant refuses, the landlord can't do anything about it.

[quote Caffeinatedmonstergirl]@Mummyoflittledragon

You do realise that this thread isn’t about me? I used my own situation as an example. Where did I say that I would do this to my tenant? He is a wonderful tenant and I would actually do my best to work with him in the event I needed him to move out and he asked to leave earlier than the notice period dictated. I just don’t judge those that wouldn’t, as everyone’s financial circumstances are different. They have no legal or moral obligation to lose out on two weeks of income just to facilitate the tenant. And yes, neither does the tenant have to cooperate in return but I don’t see both things as equal. The landlord isn’t acting out of spite, he is just insisting on what the law says he is entitled to expect. Most decent tenants would accept this and not obstruct viewings etc as petty revenge for the landlord insisting on the full notice that was set out in the tenancy agreement that they both signed.[/quote]
The ll isn’t abiding by the contact or the law.

And I know this thread isn’t about you. But it’s the attitude (or perhaps naivety) you’ve shown on this thread that helps to perpetuate the feeling that ll’s are parasites. So I’m sorry if you feel targeted. And perhaps try listening to those, with far more experience than you… as I do? I don’t profess to know everything by a long shot.

OP, having read more, I now agree with those who advise you should go through the legals with a fine-toothed comb.

If your LL thinksthat telling you in an email he wants you out at the end of August means you have to be out at the end of August, he plainly doesn't have any idea of what's what. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the paperwork hasn't been done properly.

In some cases, eg failure to issue a GSC correctly, this can mean the LL can never serve a valid S21 notice. A client I supported was in this position, and the LL ended up giving her £10k to move out.

Shelter give good advice on all this stuff, and may well have info on their website, or you could post in "legal matters" on here.

How does one accidentally become a landlord? Surely it requires deliberate planning thought and action, it's not something that can happen by accident.
Furthermore owning a valuable asset which you can charge other people to use and still realise the full value of the asset, this is a privileged position to be in so why do landlords speak the this is a miss fortune which has befallen them?
If one were to become a landlord through no intent or deliberation of one's own, well this would be serendipity rather than an accident!

Acually @Caffeinatedmonstergirl I think you're out because you've shown that you think that your tenant should show morals and grace above the rights of the law, because you're a good landlord. But you, the landlord, SHOULDN'T have to show morals and grace above the rights of the law, even though they are good tenants.

In some cases, eg failure to issue a GSC correctly, this can mean the LL can never serve a valid S21 notice. A client I supported was in this position, and the LL ended up giving her £10k to move out
I think the landlord is trying to bully you into doing what he wants in order to distract attention away from the fact that he hasn't done things properly, he's trying to stitch you up but you should be able to stitch him up 😶